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oliver sudden
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« Reply #75 on: 10:51:59, 08-08-2007 » |
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We admit to finding it astonishing, that the British peoples managed to acquire for themselves a German royal family, omitted however to avail themselves of that bracing Teutonic rigour anent syntax and punctuation. Ofttimes have we wished it the other way about.
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George Garnett
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« Reply #76 on: 10:58:51, 08-08-2007 » |
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I can't see us having one of them there Rechtschreibreforms somehow, Mr S. We loiks urr own funny ways.
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perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #77 on: 11:43:35, 08-08-2007 » |
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It seems to me little wonder that today we are informed on The News that because as many as 60% of our Primary School children have somehow "managed" to reach an acceptable standard in English, they have accordingly attained the highest achievement ever recorded (apparently!) in Primary School assessments.
There is absolutely nothing to worry about. From time to time over the last 20 years there has been concern about the level of achievement of primary school pupils and yet always, always, they go on the get the best examination results ever, ever, at 16 (and later at 18). I confidently predict that these 11 year olds will turn out better educated than anyone else in this country, and that includes the 1950s, 60s and 70s, since records have been kept in fact. Secondary school teachers work miracles these days in ways they never could. (Sits down and takes a deep breath.) I do seem to be getting controversial these days so I'd better stick to the topic. Fat composers, eh? How about George Butterworth. Butter is a fat. Some of us - after a lifetime in education - do not share this optimism regrettably. Indeed, those of us who have spent many years marking A Levels are sometimes forced to concede that this apparent and continuing "upturn" in examination results has much more to do with the changing nature of examinations and "the system" than with the intrinsic capabilities of the students. (Indeed when I eventually resigned as an A Level examiner, it was because I discovered that the results I had previously submitted had all been changed by "the system" in order to generate the "required" number of "successes" in each grade banding.) The so-called "improvement" in examination success does, therefore, tell us far more about the nature of the examination itself rather than about the qualities of the examinees. When I started life as a University Music Lecturer (very many years ago!), students were fluent upon at least two instruments, and had good sight-playing capabilities together with a wide knowledge and understanding of music and its history and repertoire. But when I retired two years ago, only half the students could read the treble clef (since they were flautists, violinists etc), and the remaining half were only able to read the bass clef (since they were 'cellists or bass guitarists). Play something like Beethoven 5 to them, and they would look at you as if you came from a different planet. Times change, as do methods or assessment, as do course contents. People, on the whole, remain essentially the same (at least in terms of their inherent intellectual capabilities, whether or not they are stretched). Baz This may be the place to describe the experience of a music teacher friend of mine, who, on correcting one of his GCSE pupils who in answer to the test question "Name a composer from the Second Viennese School" responded "Handel", was met with the response "I'm a drummer, I don't need to know any of this crap"  The young gentleman concerned apparently considers himself destined for a career as a musician .... |
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At every one of these [classical] concerts in England you will find rows of weary people who are there, not because they really like classical music, but because they think they ought to like it. (Shaw, Don Juan in Hell)
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time_is_now
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« Reply #78 on: 12:11:37, 08-08-2007 » |
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This may be the place to describe the experience of a music teacher friend of mine, who, on correcting one of his GCSE pupils who in answer to the test question "Name a composer from the Second Viennese School" responded "Handel", was met with the response "I'm a drummer, I don't need to know any of this crap" I'm not condoning ignorance, since I don't think ignorance is generally preferable to knowledge and I think education is a good thing, even if the particular facts you're taught are quite irrelevant ... BUT: I can't help pointing out that an awful lot of people (including an awful lot of traditional music teachers) would probably not object at all if a star pupil couldn't name 3 leading Stock Aitken and Waterman stars from the 1980s and responded, 'I'm a classical pianist, I don't need to know that kind of stuff.' |
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #79 on: 12:21:17, 08-08-2007 » |
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This may be the place to describe the experience of a music teacher friend of mine, who, on correcting one of his GCSE pupils who in answer to the test question "Name a composer from the Second Viennese School" responded "Handel", was met with the response "I'm a drummer, I don't need to know any of this crap" I'm not condoning ignorance, since I don't think ignorance is generally preferable to knowledge and I think education is a good thing, even if the particular facts you're taught are quite irrelevant ... BUT: I can't help pointing out that an awful lot of people (including an awful lot of traditional music teachers) would probably not object at all if a star pupil couldn't name 3 leading Stock Aitken and Waterman stars from the 1980s and responded, 'I'm a classical pianist, I don't need to know that kind of stuff.' Hmmmm - don't think I could name three such stars without checking on Wiki or something.....  |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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Baziron
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« Reply #80 on: 12:26:36, 08-08-2007 » |
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Here a mighty symphonist to omit whom it would not do:
It is "it" about which we have least confidence; we feel that our "it" may be discretionary. We agree regarding its (or '"it's"'!) discretionary nature but it (or '"it"'!) is certainly no solecism. We wanted incidentally to say that we did admire the highly economical omission of the copula ('Here a mighty symphonist' rather than 'Here is a mighty ...'). A Russian convention, no?! But its effect in English is also most pleasing. With the greatest possible respect I must differ. The sentence... Here a mighty symphonist to omit whom it would not do: ...in my view is clumsy, almost illiterate, and lacking the syntactical clarity and sharpness which its mode of articulation (mistakenly) suggests it should possess. It would, admittedly, have been less crass had the word "whom" been repositioned as follows... Here a mighty symphonist whom to omit it would not do: ...in which the "it" is now exposed as being far from "discretionary", but indeed is mandatory. The problem is that of all possible variants of the simple sentence " This is a symphonist who should not be omitted.", the one chosen (above) is packed with linguistic and syntactical dissonances that lack the kind of sophisticated organisation found even (musically) in music of the Second Viennese School. First, there is the deliberate omission of the essential verb "is" (which is more than a mere copula), assumed - it would seem by the originator - either to be irrelevant or unnecessary. Second there is the ungainly and poor juxtaposition of the formal (i.e. ..."to omit whom"...) with the informal/colloquial (i.e. ..."it would not do"...). This creates a jarring and unresolved dissonance of style and idiom. Why cannot sophisticated ideas (like simple ones) be uttered in plain, well-written ENGLISH? Is this asking too much - even in 2007? Down with poor punctuation - down with poor syntax - down with poor style! We don't need Teutonic or Russian inflections, we don't want French syntax. WE'RE ENGLISH! Baz |
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« Last Edit: 13:06:27, 08-08-2007 by Baziron »
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time_is_now
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« Reply #81 on: 12:33:50, 08-08-2007 » |
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an awful lot of people (including an awful lot of traditional music teachers) would probably not object at all if a star pupil couldn't name 3 leading Stock Aitken and Waterman stars from the 1980s and responded, 'I'm a classical pianist, I don't need to know that kind of stuff.'
Hmmmm - don't think I could name three such stars without checking on Wiki or something..... Off the top of my head: Kylie Minogue, Jason Donovan, Rick Astley, Bananarama ... Edit: Quick Wiki visit reminds me of Sonia too. How could I forget the lass from Liverpool? |
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« Last Edit: 12:54:07, 08-08-2007 by time_is_now »
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #83 on: 12:34:35, 08-08-2007 » |
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an awful lot of people (including an awful lot of traditional music teachers) would probably not object at all if a star pupil couldn't name 3 leading Stock Aitken and Waterman stars from the 1980s and responded, 'I'm a classical pianist, I don't need to know that kind of stuff.'
Hmmmm - don't think I could name three such stars without checking on Wiki or something..... Off the top of my head: Kylie Minogue, Jason Donovan, Rick Astley, Bananarama ... Yep, I would have known 3... |
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Baziron
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« Reply #84 on: 13:17:45, 08-08-2007 » |
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I'm not condoning ignorance, since I don't think ignorance is generally preferable to knowledge and I think education is a good thing, even if the particular facts you're taught are quite irrelevant ... BUT: I can't help pointing out that an awful lot of people (including an awful lot of traditional music teachers) would probably not object at all if a star pupil couldn't name 3 leading Stock Aitken and Waterman stars from the 1980s and responded, 'I'm a classical pianist, I don't need to know that kind of stuff.'
This - as I previously said - is about "course content". The problem is that "course content" currently obfuscates the traditional distinction between "Art Music" and "Popular Music". Accordingly, school students are unable to make a distinction between these two - purely because the "course content" and the obedient teachers (who use this as their bible) discard it. The test is this: can they actually READ music; do they know and understand how different musical cultures wrote music; have they thought of reasons WHY this was; how does this inform their appreciation of "music and Society"? These questions don't seem to be asked any longer! Little wonder, then, that students no longer feel the need to answer them. Baz P.S. What exactly is meant by the expression "leading Stock Aitken and Waterman stars"? How would it help my understanding of Art Music? |
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« Last Edit: 13:20:24, 08-08-2007 by Baziron »
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #85 on: 13:27:11, 08-08-2007 » |
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do they know and understand how different musical cultures wrote music; have they thought of reasons WHY this was; how does this inform their appreciation of "music and Society"? Very good questions, but not ones that I'm by any means convinced a lot of practising classical musicians would be able to answer either. |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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Baziron
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« Reply #86 on: 13:32:18, 08-08-2007 » |
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do they know and understand how different musical cultures wrote music; have they thought of reasons WHY this was; how does this inform their appreciation of "music and Society"? Very good questions, but not ones that I'm by any means convinced a lot of practising classical musicians would be able to answer either. Precisely Ian - and that is because (surely) they were never confused by a lack of distinction between "Art Music" and "Popular Music". They knew what they were doing and why, and have (presumably) been quite happy continuing to do it. Would they generally understand the expression "leading Stock Aitken and Waterman stars" any more than I do? Baz |
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time_is_now
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« Reply #87 on: 13:50:13, 08-08-2007 » |
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This - as I previously said - is about "course content". The problem is that "course content" currently obfuscates the traditional distinction between "Art Music" and "Popular Music". Accordingly, school students are unable to make a distinction between these two - purely because the "course content" and the obedient teachers (who use this as their bible) discard it.
The test is this: can they actually READ music; do they know and understand how different musical cultures wrote music; have they thought of reasons WHY this was; how does this inform their appreciation of "music and Society"?
These questions don't seem to be asked any longer! Little wonder, then, that students no longer feel the need to answer them. I accept all these points, Baz, and I don't doubt that the situation you describe (and which I've witnessed myself too) represents a misguided reduction in ambition in terms of what the educational system can help students to achieve. In response to your first point, I'd add only that what I'd really like to see would be an attempt to instil in both students and teachers a capacity for critical thinking, by which I mean that the old-fashioned obedient teachers who unthinkingly use the 'art music vs. popular music' distinction as their bible are no better than the modishly obedient ones who, as you say, defer unhesitatingly to the new course content. In responding as I did to perfect wagnerite's story, I wasn't suggesting that his friend's drummer pupil should be allowed to get away with not learning the 2nd Viennese School names he was required to. I was merely pointing out that his response 'I want to be a rock star, I don't need to know this' (vel sim.) was entirely accurate: as accurate, indeed, as your own suggestion that knowing the names of 'leading Stock Aitken and Waterman stars' wouldn't help your understanding of Art Music. Given that both positions are true, I'd suggest that while there are many advantages to upholding 'the traditional distinction between "Art Music" and "Popular Music"', it's probably unhelpful to frame that distinction in terms of one being more deserving of a place in the educational system than the other. The great tragedy of the changes you describe in the educational system is not that there are now wannabe drummers who are allowed to get away with not knowing the names of classical composers. The tragedy is that the opportunity has not been taken to include recent pop music developments in a broader, critical appreciation of the history and anthropology of culture. If students could be shown that the music they like is only one of a range of possible options (both diachronically and synchronically), then they might be more able to realise the value of learning about traditions even though they're not the traditions they want to be involved in themselves. That's why I say that a student interested in classical music should be as obliged to learn about pop music as the other way around. |
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« Last Edit: 13:54:11, 08-08-2007 by time_is_now »
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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Baziron
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« Reply #88 on: 13:53:01, 08-08-2007 » |
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You'll get a reply later t-i-n - I'm just about to have lunch!
Baz
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time_is_now
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« Reply #89 on: 13:53:19, 08-08-2007 » |
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Would they generally understand the expression "leading Stock Aitken and Waterman stars" any more than I do?
Are you saying that I phrased it inelegantly, or that you don't know who Stock Aitken and Waterman are? If the latter, then I accept that the expression may be causing you difficulties of comprehension but I don't see that they're any more legitimate than the difficulties that drummer had with the expression "composers of the Second Viennese School". Enjoy your lunch! I think it's time for me to eat something too.  |
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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