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Tony Watson
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« Reply #45 on: 14:28:58, 07-08-2007 » |
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It seems to me little wonder that today we are informed on The News that because as many as 60% of our Primary School children have somehow "managed" to reach an acceptable standard in English, they have accordingly attained the highest achievement ever recorded (apparently!) in Primary School assessments.
There is absolutely nothing to worry about. From time to time over the last 20 years there has been concern about the level of achievement of primary school pupils and yet always, always, they go on the get the best examination results ever, ever, at 16 (and later at 18). I confidently predict that these 11 year olds will turn out better educated than anyone else in this country, and that includes the 1950s, 60s and 70s, since records have been kept in fact. Secondary school teachers work miracles these days in ways they never could. (Sits down and takes a deep breath.) I do seem to be getting controversial these days so I'd better stick to the topic. Fat composers, eh? How about George Butterworth. Butter is a fat. |
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ahinton
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« Reply #46 on: 14:47:37, 07-08-2007 » |
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Fat composers, eh? How about George Butterworth. Butter is a fat.
So's Olive oil Knussen, although at least he's rather more polyunsaturated... It's perhaps a good thing that Sir Alan Sugar isn't a composer... Best, Alistair |
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #47 on: 14:48:33, 07-08-2007 » |
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but Member Grew does so in order to create ambiguity. Or perhaps to provide an Hook for those Members who seem to delight in being Reeled In?  |
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #48 on: 14:48:55, 07-08-2007 » |
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
- Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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Baziron
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« Reply #49 on: 14:51:20, 07-08-2007 » |
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It seems to me little wonder that today we are informed on The News that because as many as 60% of our Primary School children have somehow "managed" to reach an acceptable standard in English, they have accordingly attained the highest achievement ever recorded (apparently!) in Primary School assessments.
There is absolutely nothing to worry about. From time to time over the last 20 years there has been concern about the level of achievement of primary school pupils and yet always, always, they go on the get the best examination results ever, ever, at 16 (and later at 18). I confidently predict that these 11 year olds will turn out better educated than anyone else in this country, and that includes the 1950s, 60s and 70s, since records have been kept in fact. Secondary school teachers work miracles these days in ways they never could. (Sits down and takes a deep breath.) I do seem to be getting controversial these days so I'd better stick to the topic. Fat composers, eh? How about George Butterworth. Butter is a fat. Some of us - after a lifetime in education - do not share this optimism regrettably. Indeed, those of us who have spent many years marking A Levels are sometimes forced to concede that this apparent and continuing "upturn" in examination results has much more to do with the changing nature of examinations and "the system" than with the intrinsic capabilities of the students. (Indeed when I eventually resigned as an A Level examiner, it was because I discovered that the results I had previously submitted had all been changed by "the system" in order to generate the "required" number of "successes" in each grade banding.) The so-called "improvement" in examination success does, therefore, tell us far more about the nature of the examination itself rather than about the qualities of the examinees. When I started life as a University Music Lecturer (very many years ago!), students were fluent upon at least two instruments, and had good sight-playing capabilities together with a wide knowledge and understanding of music and its history and repertoire. But when I retired two years ago, only half the students could read the treble clef (since they were flautists, violinists etc), and the remaining half were only able to read the bass clef (since they were 'cellists or bass guitarists). Play something like Beethoven 5 to them, and they would look at you as if you came from a different planet. Times change, as do methods or assessment, as do course contents. People, on the whole, remain essentially the same (at least in terms of their inherent intellectual capabilities, whether or not they are stretched). Baz |
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Kittybriton
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« Reply #50 on: 15:26:03, 07-08-2007 » |
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I think Baziron may have omitted the heading: Today's Spot the (missing) comma competitionHere a mighty symphonist to omit whom it would not do:
Syd (like those in the legal profession) deliberately omits commas. The difference is this: lawyers do so in order to remove any interpretative ambiguity whatsoever; but Member Grew does so in order to create ambiguity. Here, for member Grew, is a box of commas. (I think young Terry has had his paws in the tray again, so make sure you get commas and not primes)  |
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Click me -> About meor me -> my handmade storeNo, I'm not a complete idiot. I'm only a halfwit. In fact I'm actually a catfish. |
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Milly Jones
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« Reply #51 on: 16:46:37, 07-08-2007 » |
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lawyers do so in order to remove any interpretative ambiguity whatsoever Could you give an example of that, Baz? I'm sure you're right, but I can't quite see how it would work ... Two children of a close friend of mine had money willed to them (quite a lot!), but they lost exactly one-third of the amount expected because the person who drafted the will inserted a single comma!!!!! The situation was as follows: "I hereby bequeath X-thousands pound to be shared between the children of A , and B". Now because at the time of draughting only son/daughter A had children, and also at the time of the person's death son/daughter B still did not have any children, the silly presence of this damned comma allowed son/daughter B to challenge the will in a court of law, and actually WIN for himself/herself a third of the money that was intended only to be left to the children of this generation. The consequence was that each "legitimate" child inheritor received only one-third of the amount, while the remaining third was awarded to their uncle/aunt (just because of a damned comma in the will). QED Baz Then they should have sued the solicitor who drew up the Will. I know this because I was a legal secretary for 20 years and we NEVER put commas or any other punctuation in any legal document at all. It just was not allowed. If one was put in, it must have been in error and should have been taken out when the document was checked - which they always should be by a second person. |
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We pass this way but once. This is not a rehearsal!
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autoharp
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« Reply #52 on: 17:01:29, 07-08-2007 » |
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Was there not a popular beat combo who called themselves The Obesity Rollers ?
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A
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« Reply #53 on: 17:45:42, 07-08-2007 » |
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Then they should have sued the solicitor who drew up the Will.
The trouble is it costs a great deal of money to sue anyone, and the chances are that you will not win, especially agaisnt a legal firm.... they would probably find another comma somewhere to help their case!! |
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Well, there you are.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #54 on: 18:02:20, 07-08-2007 » |
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lawyers do so in order to remove any interpretative ambiguity whatsoever Could you give an example of that, Baz? I'm sure you're right, but I can't quite see how it would work ... Two children of a close friend of mine had money willed to them (quite a lot!), but they lost exactly one-third of the amount expected because the person who drafted the will inserted a single comma!!!!! The situation was as follows: "I hereby bequeath X-thousands pound to be shared between the children of A , and B". Now because at the time of draughting only son/daughter A had children, and also at the time of the person's death son/daughter B still did not have any children, the silly presence of this damned comma allowed son/daughter B to challenge the will in a court of law, and actually WIN for himself/herself a third of the money that was intended only to be left to the children of this generation. The consequence was that each "legitimate" child inheritor received only one-third of the amount, while the remaining third was awarded to their uncle/aunt (just because of a damned comma in the will). QED I must be being very dense, but I still don't understand this. I'm glad Milly's joined in to confirm what you already said - that legal documents omit commas in order to avoid ambiguity - but if they always omit commas, that must involve a certain amount of re-phrasing. So ... Imagine that the person whose will it was really had meant to leave the money in the way implied by the comma. If legal documents are supposed to be comma-less, that would have to be conveyed by a different wording, something like: 'I hereby bequeath X-thousand pounds to be shared between B and the children of A.' So shouldn't it have been possible to challenge the comma-based interpretation of the sentence you quote on the basis that if it really had meant what B was claiming, it would have been phrased differently anyway?! Funnily enough, I don't know many lawyers at all but I'm about to go for dinner with one, so I shall have to ask him all about this! I'm intrigued ... |
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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Milly Jones
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« Reply #55 on: 18:10:19, 07-08-2007 » |
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It's not just commas - it's any punctuation at all. I have produced reams of documents with absolutely nothing except capital letters for names. Conveyances, Wills, Abstracts of Title - you name it. It is exactly for that reason - so that nothing can be misconstrued. It is written in a certain way that is understandable without punctuation (well I think it is  but then I'm used to it). |
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We pass this way but once. This is not a rehearsal!
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Baziron
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« Reply #56 on: 18:12:22, 07-08-2007 » |
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It's not just commas - it's any punctuation at all.
Golly! Do you suppose Syd will ever try this? Baz  |
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Baziron
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« Reply #57 on: 18:21:54, 07-08-2007 » |
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...we might try a little experiment, extracted from Message #1 in this thread. The original reads as follows: Many Members are reluctant to essay an answer to the question, "Who was the greatest composer?" As we have just now indicated elsewhere, they excuse themselves by questioning the question in a more metaphysical way than the true metaphysician, even. Let us then see what they have to say about the surely objective question of who the fattest composer was. Here is an example to start the ball rolling, although we can already think of several considerably more abdominous candidates. Now by removing every piece of punctuation a most remarkable thing seems to occur... Many Members are reluctant to essay an answer to the question Who was the greatest composer As we have just now indicated elsewhere they excuse themselves by questioning the question in a more metaphysical way than the true metaphysician even Let us then see what they have to say about the surely objective question of who the fattest composer was Here is an example to start the ball rolling although we can already think of several considerably more abdominous candidates ...there hardly seems to be any difference at all!Baz |
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TimR-J
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« Reply #58 on: 18:29:46, 07-08-2007 » |
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I must be being very dense, but I still don't understand this. I'm glad Milly's joined in to confirm what you already said - that legal documents omit commas in order to avoid ambiguity - but if they always omit commas, that must involve a certain amount of re-phrasing. So ... Imagine that the person whose will it was really had meant to leave the money in the way implied by the comma. If legal documents are supposed to be comma-less, that would have to be conveyed by a different wording, something like: 'I hereby bequeath X-thousand pounds to be shared between B and the children of A.'
So shouldn't it have been possible to challenge the comma-based interpretation of the sentence you quote on the basis that if it really had meant what B was claiming, it would have been phrased differently anyway?!
Funnily enough, I don't know many lawyers at all but I'm about to go for dinner with one, so I shall have to ask him all about this! I'm intrigued ...
It's all true - legal documents are all written like this (I think it's called something like 'first order language', but a quick Google suggests that's got something to do with maths, so maybe not); and when done properly (ie better than in the case of Baz's unfortunate friends), it's designed to absolutely stand up to scrutiny in court. A side effect is that it is famously impenetrable to anyone but lawyers with the time to tangle with it, but if it means that wills are executed correctly and that sort of thing, it is good (and why dumb New Labourish initiatives like insisting on Plain English for such things should be resisted). An example of such: IN consideration of the Premium stated in the heading to this Lease now paid by the
Lessee to the Lessor (the receipt of which the Lessor acknowledges) and of the rents and
covenants on the part of the Lessee set out below THE Lessor with full title guarantee
DEMISES to the Lessee the Property and the Parking Space TOGETHER with the rights
set out in Schedule 3 TO HOLD the same to the Lessee for the term of NINETY NINE
YEARS from 29 JUNE 2006 EXCEPT AND RESERVED AND SUBJECT to the rights
set out or referred to in Schedule 4 (which so far as not already affecting the Lessor’s
estate in the Property and Parking Space are hereby excepted and reserved from this
demise) and to the covenants on the part of the Lessee hereinafter contained YIELDING
AND PAYING the yearly rent in accordance with the following provisions [ etc ] |
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Milly Jones
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« Reply #59 on: 18:34:28, 07-08-2007 » |
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Thanks for those legal document extracts - OOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHH the memories!!!!  I got a letter from one of the firms I used to work for only the other day asking if I could do work for them again at home. I used to help out three firms in this way but stopped when I gained custody of the child. I do miss it though. I love the language, I love the vocabulary, I love.....oh to hell with it! I shall!!!!! I can do it through the night like I used to before. There then that's decided! It must be fate. There is a God, it's official!  |
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