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Author Topic: Do movements "belong" together?  (Read 560 times)
Ron Dough
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« Reply #15 on: 12:53:46, 15-11-2007 »

Shostakovich Symphony No 14. Sounds more like an orchestrated song cycle to me. Is it a symphony just because that is what Shostakovich called it ? Is it the overall coherant mood or is there a deeper musical reason ?

I'd suggest it's a symphony by derivation: once you've had Beethoven introducing voices, and Mendelssohn going further in his second symphony by splitting his choral section up into separate numbers, not to mention Mahler's use of poetry in his symphonies, the ball has been set rolling. Britten's Spring Symphony is in four symphonic movements, though each of those contains at least two poems from different sources, sometimes even concurrently. Shostakovich had already used literature (of various quality, admittedly) in his second and third symphonies, and, rather more tellingly, in the the thirteenth. The fourteenth can not only be seen as a direct continuation of the thread (having something particular to say and at last being able to use words to reinforce the point rather than using hidden references), but was also dedicated to Britten.

I'm sure that the Spring Symphony was at least partly in Shostakovich's mind when he wrote the 14th. It was certainly known in Russia: there had been at least one performance, in Russian translation, conducted by Rozhdestvensky in Moscow (on 18.v.1963) which has even been available here on CD: Britten and Shostakovich had already met well before that time and struck up a friendship, and the notes remind us that Britten was in Russia a couple of months prior to that (he was to return a year later for the premiere of the Cello Symphony). So the idea of a song-cycle as symphony wasn't new, and the particular gravity and careful pacing of Shostakovich's No 14 suggest that the cumulative effect is very much part of the overall plan. 
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #16 on: 13:04:35, 15-11-2007 »

Mahler's Das Lied von der Erde is also called a symphony - but only in the subtitle and unlike Shostakovich he didn't bother to number it. After Beethoven, Berlioz went even further in the practice of something being considered a symphony regardless of its content just because the composer called it one, inviting the listener to appreciate particular qualities of the overall form; Alkan wrote a 'symphony' for solo piano and that in turn reaches back to Bach calling a piece for solo harpsichord a concerto, not just because it alternated between manuals on a harpsichord (I don't actually know if he stipulated that) but because its form has to do with the ritornello practice associated with Vivaldi.

Oh dear, is that the time?
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Bryn
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« Reply #17 on: 13:11:47, 15-11-2007 »

Oh come on Ollie, you know how superstitious Mahler was said to be, and that the avoidance of numbering "Das Lied .. " is usually put down to a fear of calling it his 9th. Not that it helped much, like Beethoven he only complete 9 numbered symphonies, started on 10th and wrote another, unnumbered one.  Wink
« Last Edit: 13:25:46, 15-11-2007 by Bryn » Logged
Ron Dough
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« Reply #18 on: 13:18:45, 15-11-2007 »

I suppose I should have mentioned Zemlinsky's Lyric Symphony (1923), too: seven movements, poems from just one writer, soprano and baritone soloists. It's perhaps less likely that Shostakovich would have been aware of RVW's Sea Symphony or Sibelius's Kullervo, but DSCH 14 isn't quite as much out on a limb as you may have thought, BobbyZ.
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IgnorantRockFan
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« Reply #19 on: 13:52:06, 15-11-2007 »

you have an 'A' section which starts in the tonic and ends - having modulated there - in the dominant; and a 'B' section which starts in the dominant and ends - having modulated back there, eventually - in the tonic. The practice of repeating both sections -

:A :: B :

- guarantees the maximum variety of relationships between the two key areas. T-D, D:T, (T-D), D:D, D-T, T:D, (D-T). Explains a lot about sonata form, that.

And I was doing so well at understanding everybody's answers...   Sad

 Cheesy

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Allegro, ma non tanto
Sydney Grew
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« Reply #20 on: 14:00:05, 15-11-2007 »

you know how superstitious Mahler was . . .

Our Collins English Dictionary has the word "superstition" deriving from Latin superstitio, "dread of the supernatural," and coming in turn it says from superstare, "to stand still by something (as in amazement)."

The Oxford English Dictionary tells us "The etymological meaning of the Latin superstitio is perhaps 'standing over a thing in amazement or awe.' But other interpretations of the literal meaning (to stand upon or over) have been proposed, e.g. 'excess in devotion, over-scrupulousness or over-ceremoniousness in religion' and 'the survival of old religious habits in the midst of a new order of things'; but such ideas are foreign to ancient Roman thought."

Cicero, in The Nature of the Gods (II, 72), suggests that the word originated from superstes, "a survivor," because "people prayed and sacrificed all day long so that their children might live to survive them." Others thought that it was at first only used of the superstition of those who survived in respect of the manes of the departed; there that is to say the subjects of the superstition were indicated, but the important aspect (the superstition itself) was not expressed. It would be better still were it to be said that every false religion was simply a superstes quid - that which remains of something no longer understood.
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Ena
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« Reply #21 on: 20:42:47, 15-11-2007 »


...We have been listening to Leonhardt's performance of the Bach Partitas, recommended by Mr. Iron - sorry, Madame Ena - and note that where a section is repeated Leonhardt always pulls some lever or switches keyboards..


Indeed 'e does love! Wouldn't do to stay the same for ever would it?! Could never get folks in't Street t'understand that.

 Wink
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increpatio
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« Reply #22 on: 21:52:06, 29-11-2007 »

Oh; that's interesting Martle, what you said.

[joke about the unnecessariness of the simultaneity of the occurrence of one's number 1's and 2's removed]
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