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Author Topic: Was "aleatoric" really what we intended?  (Read 1230 times)
Baz
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« Reply #30 on: 07:11:15, 24-12-2007 »

...but to us it is not about the product but the process and the process of exploring music at its fundamentals which Herr Stockhausen undertook we must say we find endlessly inspiring regardless of what responsible aesthetic theoreticians might say. Indeed regardless of what it sounds like. To us it recalls the post-war explorations of the atom without some of its more unpleasant side effects...

...And yet to others (it must be recognized) it all represents a kind of "musical...
...set."

There is nothing "post-war" about that since we remember that the first such "kit" was manufactured in Liverpool as early as 1907. Yet what inspiration it gave to us all encouraging as it did the keenest moments of exploration and aleatory diversion. We well remember the time when we started to create from it a crane but to our astonishment and delight what we ended up with was a snooker table. The difficulty we recall was bothering to read and understand the "notation" (i.e. the "instructions") which always seemed to be written in a language foreign to us. But this never detracted from our delight in making a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

That is the point, is not it?
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #31 on: 08:33:39, 24-12-2007 »

...but to us it is not about the product but the process and the process of exploring music at its fundamentals which Herr Stockhausen undertook we must say we find endlessly inspiring regardless of what responsible aesthetic theoreticians might say. Indeed regardless of what it sounds like. To us it recalls the post-war explorations of the atom without some of its more unpleasant side effects...

...And yet to others (it must be recognized) it all represents a kind of "musical...
...set."
We might like to claim a certain copyright on this metaphor in the context of this forum: see here and here.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Baz
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« Reply #32 on: 09:56:42, 24-12-2007 »

...but to us it is not about the product but the process and the process of exploring music at its fundamentals which Herr Stockhausen undertook we must say we find endlessly inspiring regardless of what responsible aesthetic theoreticians might say. Indeed regardless of what it sounds like. To us it recalls the post-war explorations of the atom without some of its more unpleasant side effects...

...And yet to others (it must be recognized) it all represents a kind of "musical...
...set."
We might like to claim a certain copyright on this metaphor in the context of this forum: see here and here.

While we had forgotten the links referred to we have to say that Member Pace now speaks rather like a "contemporary composer". Being ever eager to eke out every right they consider is due to them through their own inventions they are foremost in claiming "copyright" (as those of us who spent years and years trying to build library stocks of "contemporary music" know only too well, especially as our endeavours were mostly fruitless due to the exhorbitant costs involved - especially we might say the "copyright" and "performance fee" costs of ever performing them publicly).

The real trick, surely, is to take out a Patent - but we must sympathize with these composers concerning the difficulty (if not indeed the impossibility) of doing so. Patents are usually attached to an actual "product" rather than merely to an "idea".

Baz  Grin
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Reiner Torheit
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WWW
« Reply #33 on: 12:51:23, 24-12-2007 »

they are foremost in claiming "copyright" (as those of us who spent years and years trying to build library stocks of "contemporary music" know only too well, especially as our endeavours were mostly fruitless due to the exhorbitant costs involved - especially we might say the "copyright" and "performance fee" costs of ever performing them publicly).

I have some sympathy with you there Baz - quite a few projected performances of new work we have tried to mount here have run aground on the issue of extortionate and outrageous demands for performing fees.  Most usually these take no account of what can be grossed at the box-office, and the assumption is that "a sponsor" (ha!) should put their hand in their pocket to pay these fees.

However in almost every case of this kind it's been the composer's publisher or agent who has scuppered the discussions, usually from motives of utmost avarice with their own interests at heart.  To most of them it's a matter of utter indifference if the music in the portfolio they represent is played or not - they would prefer it went unplayed, rather than negotiate on a single cent of the fee.  In nearly every case where I have succeeded in contacting the composer in person,  a hugely different attitude has prevailed, and we've been able to reach an agreement in which the music is heard, the composer is paid at least double what the conductor got, and we can still afford to pay the band too.

I think many composers would be utterly horrified at the churlish and mercantile approach their publishers take with enquiries about performances.   There are good ones, of course - who will advance an inspection score and sometimes a recording (of course the conductor doesn't need the recording, but it can help enormously to play it to any potential sponsor who hasn't a clue about this composer's music), will discuss with you what the realistic fees for such works could be in the city and country you plan performing, and will even show you scores of other works you might like to program alongside, or which might work even better in your program.

Then there are the bad ones, who send nothing except a Pro Forma Invoice for the first amount that enters their minds, and without a downpayment of 50% of which nothing will be sent to you at all.  The truly appalling ones don't reply at all, or don't reply for months - then they send out the wrong score & parts entirely, and expect you to return them at your own cost before they will send the correct ones (whilst you, meantime, have 10 days of rehearsals left, and delivery will take 5 of them).  You finally get a set of parts which look like they were used by a previous orchestra to shelter themselves from an explosion in a pencil-factory, with huge cuts crossed-out in ballpoint pen (!), or covered-over with carpet tape (!) which cannot be removed without defacing the printed notes below.  All the rehearsal-letters in the score will, of course, fail to match those in the parts (assuming there are any at all).

One composer's agent (regarding an opera production) went further, and sent me a detailed list of instructions about how I was to stage the show, including what costumes were "permitted" for the characters (and from whom they could be hired), furthermore demanding that rehearsal photographs were to be submitted to the agent for inspection during the period of rehearsal...  and on which permission to give the performances was contingent!!

Another agent informed me that the composer's Will required that the work be performed in the audience's language only. This required translating it into Russian, and the fee would be $3000 to do so - apparently they had "a Polish gentleman who speaks some Russian" who would undertake the job.  No translation we had done ourselves (for example, the one the former Head Vocal Coach of the Bolshoi Theatre had done for us) would be acceptable.  Once we contacted the composer's family, however, the situation was amicably resolved and they were delighted to hear we wanted to perform his work Smiley

So in my view, the problem lies with agents and publishers who are profoundly ignorant of the works they represent, and who can only be motivated by cash.   In frustration at the second delivery of the wrong score and parts of an opera,  I wrote to Schirmer Edition and told them we had poured petrol on the material and made a bonfire...   it was the only way I could get them to reply to a month's-worth of one-way correspondence  Wink
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
time_is_now
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« Reply #34 on: 13:15:51, 24-12-2007 »


Looks to me like a score by this man:
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C Dish
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« Reply #35 on: 16:19:05, 24-12-2007 »

Thank you, Reiner.

I am self-published and I don't see a need for a publisher anytime soon. Publishers will make themselves obsolete if they haven't already.

There is an outfit here in the states which composers can send their proofread .pdfs to, and the place does all the rest (printing, binding, shipping) without claiming any rights. I forget the name of the place, but I think CKH would know. Makes a publisher only useful for promotion, though that can be the work of an agent.
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inert fig here
Sydney Grew
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« Reply #36 on: 17:09:45, 24-12-2007 »

How thoughtless Members will divagate if not lashed! Herr Thorheit although amusing in his inimitable way is quite off the beam.

Xenakis the Greek wrote a good deal about the aleatory. Here is something translated from the first chapter ("Varieties of Stochastic Music") of his Musiques Formelles ("Varieties of Formalised Music") of 1963 which may interest many of you:



           

                       

We ourself refrain for the moment from comment.
« Last Edit: 17:21:34, 24-12-2007 by Sydney Grew » Logged
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