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Author Topic: Was "aleatoric" really what we intended?  (Read 1230 times)
Sydney Grew
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« on: 08:37:28, 21-12-2007 »

...Is number six an especially good one? Perhaps the Member would be good enough to warn us off anything aleatoric...

I fear I must ask Mr. Grew for his advice: what can he possibly mean by "aleatoric" (has he perhaps "made up" the word?)?

Baz

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleatoric_music
Thanks CD, BUT...
I do (of course!) know this term. My rhetorical astonishment was that Mr. Grew should a) know of the term's existence, and b) actually be using itHuh Huh Huh Huh Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked

Baz
After a span of some six months a kind of penny has at last dropped. We begin to see whither the Member was driving! This has come about in part through our perusal of the entry "aleatory music" in the Oxford Dictionary of Music edited by Michael Kennedy, one time music critic of the Sunday Telegraph. Let us quote the article in full:

"aleatoric music (from Lat. alea, dice; hence the throw of the dice for chance). Synonym for indeterminacy," [sic] "i.e. music that cannot be predicted before performance or music which was composed through chance procedures (statistical or computerized). The adjective 'aleatoric' is a bastard word, to be avoided by those who care for language."

Well! that claim of bastardry is what our Member was attempting to warn us about through his so diplomatic hints was it not?

Yet the word "aleatoric" is found in the Oxford English Dictionary, as well as in the Collins and the Chambers dictionaries, without indication of illegitimacy. The O.E.D. hints at a distinction, even: "aleatory - dependent on the throw of a die; hence, dependent on uncertain contingencies" and "aleatoric - dependent on uncertain contingencies; done at random." We would most likely have looked it up at the time of writing.

In the case of the Oxford Dictionary of Music then Mr. Kennedy's contributor seems to have had some sort of bête noire in his bonnet may we not conclude? Can our Member point us to where it all comes from?

What the Oxford Dictionary of Music would have done better to have said is that "indeterminate music" "aleatoric music" or "aleatory music", whatever one wishes to call it, is illegitimate music and the opposite of Art - that is our considered conclusion. Some of the more argumentative Members may wish to dispute this point but what pleasure we shall take in proving them wrong!
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #1 on: 09:02:35, 21-12-2007 »

"... i satisfaktsia ya trebuyu!"
Lensky to Onegin, Act II, EVGENY ONEGIN

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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
oliver sudden
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« Reply #2 on: 09:10:29, 21-12-2007 »

« Last Edit: 09:16:24, 21-12-2007 by oliver sudden » Logged
Baz
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« Reply #3 on: 12:28:15, 21-12-2007 »

...Is number six an especially good one? Perhaps the Member would be good enough to warn us off anything aleatoric...

I fear I must ask Mr. Grew for his advice: what can he possibly mean by "aleatoric" (has he perhaps "made up" the word?)?

Baz

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleatoric_music
Thanks CD, BUT...
I do (of course!) know this term. My rhetorical astonishment was that Mr. Grew should a) know of the term's existence, and b) actually be using itHuh Huh Huh Huh Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked

Baz
After a span of some six months a kind of penny has at last dropped. We begin to see whither the Member was driving! This has come about in part through our perusal of the entry "aleatory music" in the Oxford Dictionary of Music edited by Michael Kennedy, one time music critic of the Sunday Telegraph. Let us quote the article in full:

"aleatoric music (from Lat. alea, dice; hence the throw of the dice for chance). Synonym for indeterminacy," [sic] "i.e. music that cannot be predicted before performance or music which was composed through chance procedures (statistical or computerized). The adjective 'aleatoric' is a bastard word, to be avoided by those who care for language."

Well! that claim of bastardry is what our Member was attempting to warn us about through his so diplomatic hints was it not?

Yet the word "aleatoric" is found in the Oxford English Dictionary, as well as in the Collins and the Chambers dictionaries, without indication of illegitimacy. The O.E.D. hints at a distinction, even: "aleatory - dependent on the throw of a die; hence, dependent on uncertain contingencies" and "aleatoric - dependent on uncertain contingencies; done at random." We would most likely have looked it up at the time of writing.

In the case of the Oxford Dictionary of Music then Mr. Kennedy's contributor seems to have had some sort of bête noire in his bonnet may we not conclude? Can our Member point us to where it all comes from?

What the Oxford Dictionary of Music would have done better to have said is that "indeterminate music" "aleatoric music" or "aleatory music", whatever one wishes to call it, is illegitimate music and the opposite of Art - that is our considered conclusion. Some of the more argumentative Members may wish to dispute this point but what pleasure we shall take in proving them wrong!


I cannot attempt to explain (and would not dream of doing so) how others may have used the word "aleatoric", and what they might possibly have meant by it. But its "bastardly" connotations do not (in my view) confine themselves to music actually designed to be the result of pure chance in performance.

A really good example of how 18th-c music can (if the conditions are adjudged appropriate by whichever baffoon chooses to perpetrate it) be overtly "aleatoric" is Leon Berben's recording of Bach's 48 Preludes and Fugues. Despite his training under the tutorship of no less a person than Gustav Leonhardt, not a single phrase of ANY of this music is permitted to pass by without a seemingly limitless number of what might (out of sheer generosity) be termed "chance notes" (none of which appears in ANY surviving source, especially those penned in the composer's own hand).

In particular might be mentioned his "first performance" of "his" vision of the Prelude in F minor from Book 2. Interpretatively, it is marked throughout not only by what might be termed a "total aleatoricism" of pitch materials, but (more significantly) of RHYTHM.

Well worth (in my view) an entry into the Guinness Book of Worthless Performances Captured on CD.

Baz  Sad Sad Sad Sad Sad Sad Sad Sad Sad Sad
« Last Edit: 12:33:52, 21-12-2007 by Baz » Logged
time_is_now
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« Reply #4 on: 12:33:41, 21-12-2007 »

Baz

You should listen to Olli Mustonen play something some time.

Then again, you shouldn't really.
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #5 on: 13:36:25, 21-12-2007 »

Said it before, and I'll say it again...

... show me the Slow Movement of Brandenburg 3?   

A work, remember, that we know primarily from a presentation score, made purposely to impress the Margrave of Brandenburg with Bach's abilities, and to recommend the composer for the post of Kapellmeister to the Margrave?  In other words, the most Urtext score of Bach's work we might reasonably hope to possess.
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Sydney Grew
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« Reply #6 on: 14:00:06, 21-12-2007 »

And what about the Yi-Ching? It must be make-believe must not it?
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Bryn
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« Reply #7 on: 14:21:36, 21-12-2007 »

What about the "Book of Changes"? A venerable work with much wisdom to be found in its pages. Perhaps the method of random selection within 64 potential outcomes is what is being considered? Throws up nearly six times the range of posibilities as a pair of dice would. The compositional skill, of course, comes in the assembling of the sets of 64 posibilities from which the chance operations will determine the one to be used.
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Baz
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« Reply #8 on: 14:56:38, 21-12-2007 »

...But we don't have to wait until the 20th c for "chance" music determined by the throw of a die! There is that wonderful Mass by Josquin Desprez (authorship doubted by some musicological cranks - but never mind!) called Missa Di Dadi.

The clefs shown are merely faces of a die, and the idea is that when the die is thrown, the number revealed indicates the Mode to be used for that particular performance.

Since, however, the composer has had the decency to compose a piece of music that actually works perfectly well in any of the four tonalities (i.e. protus, deuterus, tritus or tetrardus - each of which divides into an "authentic" and a "plagal" mode) without further need for "mucking around" by the performers, the only "chance" element is the throw of the die. This is, therefore, an early example of "controlled aleatoricism" (is it not?).

Good old Josquin!

Baz
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #9 on: 00:21:23, 23-12-2007 »

Sooner or later we will find out what is so illegitimate about "aleatoric." We feel there must be some member who knows.

In the mean time, let us remember that aleatory novels as well as aleatory music have been attempted, though goodness knows why! We hate them just as much. B.S. Johnson's "The Unfortunates" is one notorious example; it consists of a box of loose leaves which the reader is at liberty to shuffle.

Here is one of its pages:

Plenty of opinions about it are expressed here. The author killed himself at the age of forty.
« Last Edit: 12:01:56, 23-12-2007 by Sydney Grew » Logged
time_is_now
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« Reply #10 on: 00:46:42, 23-12-2007 »

The author killed himself at the age of forty.
Your point being?

'Died by his own hand' we find a more sympathetic formulation. Interested Members may find this an informative introduction. As for the man's own writings, Christie Malry's Own Double-Entry is shorter than most but not untypical, and is easily obtained in paperback. It would fit comfortably in most Christmas stockings. We have not watched the recent(ish) film, nor do we think we want to. Has any Member read the posthumously published See the Old Lady Decently? We have not - one for 2008, perhaps. We find the title most affecting, and not at all silly (indeed, it is almost embarrassingly plain, a curious effect for a supposedly 'experimental' writer, but again, not at all untypical of the committed socialist Johnson).
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
Andy D
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« Reply #11 on: 00:56:01, 23-12-2007 »

I read Christie Malry's Own Double-Entry many years ago tinners and the memory of it has remained strongly with me ever since - a very impressive book.

I believe that SG has made an unforced error in asserting that The Unfortunates consists of a box of loose leaves.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #12 on: 01:09:47, 23-12-2007 »

I believe that SG has made an unforced error in asserting that The Unfortunates consists of a box of loose leaves.
You're quite right, Andy. They're loose sheaves - 25 of them, each a bundle of some 10 or so pages.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
Sydney Grew
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« Reply #13 on: 01:32:32, 23-12-2007 »

The author killed himself at the age of forty.
Your point being?

'Died by his own hand' we find a more sympathetic formulation.

We are too literal-minded to make points Mr. Now! (One which we might now since the matter has arisen make though is that seventy is a more usual age for that sort of thing.) And we should confess that Johnson to us was a name unknown before to-day. Our interest had been directed much more towards little Ferdinand Kriwet (who nowadays makes "Hörtexts" [texts for hearing] rather than the concrete variety - but what an indecent German photograph it is we see here! - we hope it is not also his). And Mr. D. may we sense be right about the "unforced error" but he should in that case attribute it to the "Concise Oxford Dictionary of Literary Terms" (1992) rather than directly to us who were inspired only this evening to open its pages wherein we found: "Aleatory or Aleatoric, dependent upon chance. Aleatory writing involves an element of randomness either in composition, as in automatic writing and the cut-up, or in the reader's selection and ordering of written fragments, as in B.S. Johnson's novel The Unfortunates (1969), a box of loose leaves which the reader could shuffle at will." The sheave sheaf [thank you Mr. Now] system would better explain the little number "4" at the top of the page would not it? We wonder whether the unconcise or comprehensive Oxford Dictionary of Literary Terms retains or contains the same error?
« Last Edit: 05:07:00, 23-12-2007 by Sydney Grew » Logged
time_is_now
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« Reply #14 on: 01:40:36, 23-12-2007 »

We are too literal-minded to make points Mr. Now! (One which we might now since the matter has arisen make though is that seventy is a more usual age for that sort of thing.)
Is it? Who kills himself at seventy?

Quote
And we should confess that Johnson to us was a name unknown before to-day.
That's incredible! Your knowledge of the literary avant-garde of the 1960s clearly lags behind that of the musical one.

Quote
The sheave system would better explain the little number "4" at the top of the page would not it?
I don't actually recall whether the pages within each sheaf are numbered sequentially beginning with page 1, but I suppose they must be: I can't think of another way of doing it that wouldn't prejudicially imply an order for the sheaves.

The singular of 'sheaves' is 'sheaf', incidentally. Is not it? Wink
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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