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oliver sudden
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« Reply #15 on: 20:12:06, 11-02-2008 » |
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I think the first major thirds as consonances are found in English repertoire - the French refererred to it as an "English mannerism". Probably the Winchester Troper or something of that period? I don't know if it was that early - I was under the impression that that term was mostly associated with Dunstaple. At least, wiki is telling me the term is from a 1441-1442 poem by Martin le Franc (in their entry on the Old Hall manuscript). |
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MabelJane
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« Reply #16 on: 22:48:13, 11-02-2008 » |
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Beethoven Eb Piano Sonata op. 33 no. 1, 1st movt. (The sonata actually begins with a second inversion chord II with added 7th. Or is it root chord IV with added 6th? Either way it's spooky.
Being not very familiar with all his sonatas I'm pleased with myself that I heard it in my head! At least, I think this is the one you mean, but it's op 31 no 3. So it's probably the wrong one after all...   |
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« Last Edit: 23:40:06, 11-02-2008 by MabelJane »
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Merely corroborative detail, intended to give artistic verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #17 on: 22:52:59, 11-02-2008 » |
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That's the one, MJ! Although whoever set that music example could've done with a good editor - it needs a natural sign for the G in bar 6 and the time signatures removing at the start of the second system in bar 5 ... |
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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martle
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« Reply #18 on: 22:56:46, 11-02-2008 » |
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Precisely so, MJ! And my mistake - op. 31 no. 3 it is! You sleuth! Beethoven at 31:  |
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Green. Always green.
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MabelJane
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« Reply #19 on: 22:58:59, 11-02-2008 » |
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That's the one, MJ!  Although whoever set that music example could've done with a good editor - it needs a natural sign for the G in bar 6 and the time signatures removing at the start of the second system in bar 5 ... I was amazed to find this quotation straightaway! |
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Merely corroborative detail, intended to give artistic verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #20 on: 23:03:59, 11-02-2008 » |
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Oh, and it's a first-inversion chord II actually, Mr Green! |
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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martle
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« Reply #21 on: 23:06:48, 11-02-2008 » |
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Quite right, Mr Tin. Now, where did I put my bicycle clips...?  |
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Green. Always green.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #22 on: 23:12:17, 11-02-2008 » |
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I'm straying off-topic, but the other immediately interesting thing about that opening of course is the impossibility of subdividing it into evenly balanced 4-bar phrase units, themselves composed of matching/contrasted 2-bar units. All of which only serves to reinforce the sense of bar 1 as a complete false start (or indeed, a misplaced ending), which is how the harmony sounds too.
I don't see any reason for regarding the opening sonority as chord IV with added sixth, though. It's weird, but not that far outside the harmonic syntax of its time, surely?! Or am I missing something ...
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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martle
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« Reply #23 on: 23:22:39, 11-02-2008 » |
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It's the lack of preparation, tinners. That's what's unusual, and I'd agree that chord II is a far more logical reading than chord IV. Anyway, some way into the movement there's an unprepared half-diminished version of this - same opening chord, but with a Cb - which was what prompted my citing it.
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Green. Always green.
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #24 on: 23:32:15, 11-02-2008 » |
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I think the first major thirds as consonances are found in English repertoire - the French refererred to it as an "English mannerism". Probably the Winchester Troper or something of that period? I don't know if it was that early - I was under the impression that that term was mostly associated with Dunstaple. At least, wiki is telling me the term is from a 1441-1442 poem by Martin le Franc (in their entry on the Old Hall manuscript). I am pretty sure there are some major thirds in the Winchester Troper anyhow  I think they were already very well-established by the time of Power and Dunstable? That little 2-part song Edi Beo Thu Hevene Quene (Eng early C13th) has strophes ending on major thirds, although it chickens out of them at full endings. |
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
- Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #25 on: 23:38:20, 11-02-2008 » |
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I think the first major thirds as consonances are found in English repertoire - the French refererred to it as an "English mannerism". Probably the Winchester Troper or something of that period? I don't know if it was that early - I was under the impression that that term was mostly associated with Dunstaple. At least, wiki is telling me the term is from a 1441-1442 poem by Martin le Franc (in their entry on the Old Hall manuscript). I am pretty sure there are some major thirds in the Winchester Troper anyhow I think they were already very well-established by the time of Power and Dunstable? That little 2-part song Edi Beo Thu Hevene Quene (Eng early C13th) has strophes ending on major thirds, although it chickens out of them at full endings. I seem to remember Fabrice Fitch saying something about thirds in the Winchester Troper. Actually I seem to remember a fairly long conversation about la contenance angloise but I seem to have forgotten all the details...  If I remember, I'll ask him when I see him on Thursday. |
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'is this all we can do?' anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965) http://www.myspace.com/itensemble |
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autoharp
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« Reply #26 on: 00:02:43, 12-02-2008 » |
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I don't see any reason for regarding the opening sonority as chord IV with added sixth, though. It's weird, but not that far outside the harmonic syntax of its time, surely?! Or am I missing something ...
As a teenager I was never convinced by the IIb-V-I argument. I always thought it sounded like IV with a 6th. (Same here). And then I thought what difference does it make anyway? What happens with the line: and, whom does this all serve? - composers don't think this way: - and such notions. I have to admit that to this day I get very impatient with such things and I really don't care. Should I? |
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #27 on: 00:19:27, 12-02-2008 » |
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I seem to remember Fabrice Fitch saying something about thirds in the Winchester Troper. Actually I seem to remember a fairly long conversation about la contenance angloise but I seem to have forgotten all the details... If I remember, I'll ask him when I see him on Thursday. Ta! I am very far away from any source-materials on the subject, but my interest has been piqued. I've got Parrish on my shelf, but plodding through a transcription of C13th music after all these years is rather heavy going just to ease my idle curiosity |
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
- Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #28 on: 10:20:49, 05-06-2008 » |
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What is the state of research on these harmonic 'firsts'? And what are the problems associated with even asking such a question? There are some rather unusual chromatic things going on in the middle section of Chopin's Etude opus ten number two are not there. Is that the sort of thing you mean? |
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Baz
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« Reply #29 on: 10:58:22, 05-06-2008 » |
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I think the first major thirds as consonances are found in English repertoire - the French refererred to it as an "English mannerism". Probably the Winchester Troper or something of that period? I don't know if it was that early - I was under the impression that that term was mostly associated with Dunstaple. At least, wiki is telling me the term is from a 1441-1442 poem by Martin le Franc (in their entry on the Old Hall manuscript). I am pretty sure there are some major thirds in the Winchester Troper anyhow I think they were already very well-established by the time of Power and Dunstable? That little 2-part song Edi Beo Thu Hevene Quene (Eng early C13th) has strophes ending on major thirds, although it chickens out of them at full endings. For some reason I've missed out on this thread altogether! It must have been when my computer was sick (which I have since replaced). Thirds and sixths definitely were a noted feature of English music long before Dunstable. Walter Oddington (the Evesham monk, c. 1300) wrote about them in his De speculatione musice, and even dicussed the fine tuning of them to make them 'pure' intervals. They are a notable feature of the vast corpus of English 13th/14th century music, though I don't associate them with music as early as the Winchester Troper. The earliest surviving organ tablature (the so-called 'Robertsbridge Codex') dating from the early 14th century provides a number of intabulations of dances (as well as French motets, and at least one English organum intabulation) or Estampies. One of these has long repeating sections in which both 'voices' move in parallel sixths. There is nothing comparable with this on the Continent at the time. The sound of 3rd and 6ths had become so much an English mannerism that at the time of Dunstable it was referred to abroad as the "contenance anglaise". Baz |
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