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Author Topic: Anorak territory: harmonic 'firsts'  (Read 857 times)
C Dish
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« on: 16:52:10, 07-02-2008 »

Poking through the music of Bernardo Storace I ran across some more hair-raising cross-relations and things, but also, in a little Passagaglio <sic> the to me earliest known instance of a fully-diminished 7th-chord.

As we all know, that's the beginning of the end for tonality is it not?

What is the state of research on these harmonic 'firsts'? And what are the problems associated with even asking such a question?

It reminds me of Carl Dahlhaus's text Origins of harmonic tonality, which I read some years ago and will have to dig out again. So here's a thread.

What about augmented triads? What about upward-resolving suspensions (cf. Frescobaldi's Capriccio cromatico con ligature al contrario, seconda practica, and the speculative treatises of Vincenzo Galilei)?

Help!
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #1 on: 17:47:18, 07-02-2008 »

How far back do you want to go?   Anonymous IV treated 2nds and 9ths as consonances, and major thirds as dissonances - in the C12th.
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John W
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« Reply #2 on: 18:17:16, 07-02-2008 »

How far CAN we go back?



Early Music
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pim_derks
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« Reply #3 on: 22:03:22, 07-02-2008 »

How far CAN we go back?



Early Music

Cheesy
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John W
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« Reply #4 on: 22:22:03, 07-02-2008 »

C Dish of course you know what we are all like here. Whatever you might think it IS a good start to your thread
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C Dish
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« Reply #5 on: 22:24:07, 07-02-2008 »

Glad we got that settled. I don't think my question was understood, but I'm glad to see that Far Side cartoons can be found on the internet.

I will sit back a few days, then attempt to re-formulate my thread starter...  Undecided
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John W
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« Reply #6 on: 22:28:16, 07-02-2008 »

Glad we got that settled. I don't think my question was understood, but I'm glad to see that Far Side cartoons can be found on the internet.

I will sit back a few days, then attempt to re-formulate my thread starter...  Undecided

Ah, C Dish,of course it was understood, even by me, but my contributions may end here. I wonder if works of jazz might feature in these firsts? (Maybe that should have been reply #23)
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #7 on: 22:51:04, 07-02-2008 »

How far back do you want to go?   Anonymous IV treated 2nds and 9ths as consonances, and major thirds as dissonances - in the C12th.
That sounds like a reasonable consequence of Pythagorean tuning to me...  Cool
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increpatio
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« Reply #8 on: 23:59:56, 07-02-2008 »

How far back do you want to go?   Anonymous IV treated 2nds and 9ths as consonances, and major thirds as dissonances - in the C12th.
That sounds like a reasonable consequence of Pythagorean tuning to me...  Cool
Gosh, I think there's a good case to be made for a retrospective diagnosis of Fifth disease, neh?
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #9 on: 00:18:51, 08-02-2008 »

How far back do you want to go?   Anonymous IV treated 2nds and 9ths as consonances, and major thirds as dissonances - in the C12th.
That sounds like a reasonable consequence of Pythagorean tuning to me...  Cool
Gosh, I think there's a good case to be made for a retrospective diagnosis of Fifth disease, neh?

I'm sure that's absolutely right.  I also bet the practice of "avoiding doubling the major third in a triad" that we're taught when doing school-age harmony & counterpoint stems from this too.   I think the first major thirds as consonances are found in English repertoire - the French refererred to it as an "English mannerism".  Probably the Winchester Troper or something of that period?
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
increpatio
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« Reply #10 on: 02:24:19, 08-02-2008 »

I'm sure that's absolutely right.  I also bet the practice of "avoiding doubling the major third in a triad" that we're taught when doing school-age harmony & counterpoint stems from this too. 
How?
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C Dish
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« Reply #11 on: 06:26:42, 11-02-2008 »

Ah, C Dish,of course it was understood, even by me, but my contributions may end here. I wonder if works of jazz might feature in these firsts? (Maybe that should have been reply #23)
I have no doubt that jazz will provide a great number of harmonic innovations whose exact moment of first appearance may at times be easily pinpointed, though not necessarily by me. That requires an anorak of a different order.

As we go back in history, the problem becomes much thornier, and surely only inconclusively solveable, as not every work ever written survives -- still, there must be generally agreed-upon lines of provenance that, for example, led to the particular pattern composed by Mr Storace. I can certainly tell that his Passagaglio <sic> owes an enormous debt to Frescobaldi, in whose oeuvre however, AFAIK, no such sonority comes about despite a seeming penchant for just such skirtings of the rules.

Here is something I would love to see explored: When did composers begin thinking of the harmonic cycle of fifths as being an actual cycle in practice? I know that this happened in stages, of course, but that in spite of such demonstrative examples as the Canon per tonos from the Musical Offering it wasn't until perhaps the 19th century that a great digression such as the modulation by a major third could be seen to occur three times in a row in the same direction. Schubert's G major String Quartet moves for its second subject first from D major to Bb major, then from D major to F# major, but the 'obvious' link from F# to Bb by the same modulatory 'operation' doesn't take place. Not that he didn't know about the possibility, of course, but because, I suppose, he disdained it for its formal or affective inutility.

If it seems like I'm bandying about with highly technical terms, rest assured that they're not such but rather everyday words applied to a topic for which I lack the suitable vocabulary.
« Last Edit: 06:35:06, 11-02-2008 by C Dish » Logged

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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #12 on: 12:15:34, 11-02-2008 »

I think you've done a marvellous job describing modulations by upward steps of a major third, Mr Dish Smiley

Do you think that the reason such a progression is rarely found is because it would be too repetitive - "the same trick done three times"?   To talk about "modulation" at all,  we have to be in the realms of tonal music...   if there isn't a tonality to start with, then no modulation away from it is either possible or audible. 

One of the principle "effects" of modulation is to create dramatic suspense...  holding the music away from its home key, so that when we finally get back "home" there is a rewarding sense of completion.  (It's a mirror of the classical model of "comedy"  - I mean the Greek dramatic form, rather than anything to do with custard pies - in which the norms of the situation in which we begin are then deliberately "switched"...  but finally normality is restored,  "the man shall have his horse again, and all will be well!" - and we feel a sense of homecoming and relief.

But if it's just the same modulation each time,  when it happens the third time,  are we going to feel that we are "home", or are we just stuck in some kind of musical groundhog day,  condemned to go around in circles until the players collapse from exhaustion or boredom?   Surely we need some counterposed modulation back down again,  to return our balloon to earth?  Smiley
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
C Dish
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« Reply #13 on: 13:23:14, 11-02-2008 »

But if it's just the same modulation each time,  when it happens the third time,  are we going to feel that we are "home", or are we just stuck in some kind of musical groundhog day,  condemned to go around in circles until the players collapse from exhaustion or boredom?   Surely we need some counterposed modulation back down again,  to return our balloon to earth?  Smiley
Which is what I meant by affective/formal inutility. Not sure if this topic is specific enough for a thread, but I still harbor some hope.
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martle
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« Reply #14 on: 19:56:34, 11-02-2008 »

I also bet the practice of "avoiding doubling the major third in a triad" that we're taught when doing school-age harmony & counterpoint stems from this too.   I think the first major thirds as consonances are found in English repertoire - the French refererred to it as an "English mannerism".  Probably the Winchester Troper or something of that period?

The Eton Choirbook, Reiner? Strina may put us right here. Or Baz.

Unprepared half-diminished 7ths. Tristan? Nay! Beethoven Eb Piano Sonata op. 33 no. 1, 1st movt. (The sonata actually begins with a second inversion chord II with added 7th. Or is it root chord IV with added 6th? Either way it's spooky.
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