The Radio 3 Boards Forum from myforum365.com
04:38:12, 01-12-2008 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Whilst we happily welcome all genuine applications to our forum, there may be times when we need to suspend registration temporarily, for example when suffering attacks of spam.
 If you want to join us but find that the temporary suspension has been activated, please try again later.
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  

Pages: 1 ... 19 20 [21] 22 23 ... 46
  Print  
Author Topic: At Least Ninety-Six Crackpot Interpretations  (Read 11251 times)
Turfan Fragment
*****
Posts: 1330


Formerly known as Chafing Dish


« Reply #300 on: 09:42:23, 10-06-2008 »

You said that you were off to bed 2 hours ago TF - surely it must be about 3.30am now in Illinois?!
No, I'm afraid I said "Sleep awaits." This is a very different thing indeed. I am working thru to meet a deadline.
Logged

Sydney Grew
Guest
« Reply #301 on: 09:54:15, 10-06-2008 »

The only issue to resolve is why Bach should have chosen to express these keys in the notation he did. Even if the C# Major P&F were (according to Ollie) originally in C, this does not explain why, in presenting it a semitone higher, he eventually opted for C# instead of Db.

Even assuming that a reason might have been his preference for keys that were 'easier' to write and read, this does not explain why he should have used a signature of 7 sharps for no. 2 (in both sets) instead of the 'easier' presentation of just 5 flats.

Riemann has a contribution to make here. In his commentary on the Prelude and Fugue in C sharp major from Book I he writes:

"Kroll has written this number in the key of D flat in place of C#, and might plead, by way of justification that Bach, had he lived at the present day, would certainly have done the same; for, without doubt D flat is a key more familiar to us than C#, but in his day, the reverse was the case. The C# prelude, however, affords convincing proof that his powers of feeling and of invention were definitely influenced by the key: this ardent midsummer mood, this flashing, glimmering and glistening ('Blitzen, Flirren und Flimmern') were evolved from the spirit of the C# major key; the veiled, soft key of D flat would have suggested treatment of a totally different kind."

Does what Riemann says make any sense?

"Kroll" - Franz Kroll that is, the editor of one well-regarded edition of the Well Tempered Clavier (1866), and a pupil of Liszt - appears neither in Grove nor in the Cambridge History of Western Music Theory, but he lived from 1820 to 1877, and taught the pianoforte in Berlin. Here is a letter Liszt wrote to him, and we find therefrom that he was both a first-rater and a composer:

"My dear good Kroll,

"What a first-rate man you are to me, and what pleasure your letter has given me! Probably you already know that I also have been figuring as an invalid these last five weeks.--God be thanked and praised that I am already pretty fairly on my legs again, without rheumatism in the joints or gout! In a few days I shall begin my provincial tour (Lyons, Marseilles, Toulouse, Bordeaux), and then towards the end of August by steamer to Stockholm and Copenhagen. Weymar, our good, dear Weymar, will again be our Christmas Day! Oh what beautiful apples and trifles we will hang on our Christmas tree! and what talks and compositions, and projects and plans! Only don't you disappoint me, and mind you come fresh and well. Leave the bad looks to me, and see that you fill out your cheeks properly. This winter we must be industrious, and struggle through much work.

"Your Mazurkas are most excellent and talented. You have put a great deal into them--and, if you will allow me to speak quite freely--perhaps too much into them, for much of it halts. Although the dedication to me is both pleasing and gratifying, I cannot help thinking that it would be to your interest not to publish anything before next spring. Take advantage of being as yet unknown, and give to the public from the beginning a proper opinion of your talent by a collective publication. Write a couple of pleasing, brilliant Studies--perhaps also a Notturno (or something of that sort), and an effective Fantasia on some conspicuous theme. Then let Schlesinger, Hartel, or Mechetti (to whom I will most gladly speak about your works beforehand) publish the six pieces--your Concerto and the C major Study, together with the later pieces--all together, so that publisher, critic, artist, and public all have to do with them at the same time. Instead of dishing up one little sweetmeat for the people, give them a proper dinner. I am very sorry I did not follow this plan myself; for, after much experience, I consider it far the best, especially for pianoforte works. In Weymar we will talk more fully and definitely about this. Conradi [Musician and friend in Berlin] is also to come. I don't require the Huguenot Fantasia at present. He will have time enough for it in Weymar. En attendant, Schlesinger will give him a modest payment for the work he has begun. Please kindly see about the enclosed letters for Freund as soon as possible.

"With all good wishes, I am, dear Kroll,

"Yours most sincerely,

"F. Liszt

"Port Marly, June 11th, 1844"

« Last Edit: 10:54:04, 10-06-2008 by Sydney Grew » Logged
Baz
Guest
« Reply #302 on: 11:33:31, 10-06-2008 »

With regard to the Prelude in C# Major (Book 1), we can safely disregard the ramblings of Tovey ("Dancing, not braying" indeed!) and also the notion provided by Mr Grew (in opposition to Tovey) that it imitates the braying of a donkey or ass. Fiddlesticks I say!

Anybody who thinks intelligently about this piece will in time come to realise that it is a "tone poem" in miniature depicting the Dawn Chorus as heard by Bach on a wonderful sunny morning in early Spring. This should also explain the highly exotic key signature!

Quite audibly, the first section represents the early singing of the Singdrossel (Song Thrush) - or more precisely two of them singing counterpoint together. You can clearly hear the playful flapping of wings as each one sings beautifully to the other, no doubt in excited conversation as to where the current worm 'rich pickings' can be found.

You will also notice - with extreme clarity - that in the second half of the piece, these are joined by a Cuckoo (or possibly even a pair crooning away to each other). They are also animated and clearly enjoying the early morning sunshine.

If any further doubt could possibly exist that this is the 'programmatic content' of this little piece, I should urge you to listen to this performance - deliberately made to illustrate these new discoveries:

CLICK HERE

Baz Wink
« Last Edit: 11:37:25, 10-06-2008 by Baz » Logged
Baz
Guest
« Reply #303 on: 12:06:20, 10-06-2008 »

Quote
"My dear good Kroll,

"What a first-rate man you are to me, and what pleasure your letter has given me! Probably you already know that I also have been figuring as an invalid these last five weeks.--God be thanked and praised that I am already pretty fairly on my legs again, without rheumatism in the joints or gout! In a few days I shall begin my provincial tour (Lyons, Marseilles, Toulouse, Bordeaux), and then towards the end of August by steamer to Stockholm and Copenhagen. Weymar, our good, dear Weymar, will again be our Christmas Day! Oh what beautiful apples and trifles we will hang on our Christmas tree! and what talks and compositions, and projects and plans! Only don't you disappoint me, and mind you come fresh and well. Leave the bad looks to me, and see that you fill out your cheeks properly. This winter we must be industrious, and struggle through much work.

"Your Mazurkas are most excellent and talented. You have put a great deal into them--and, if you will allow me to speak quite freely--perhaps too much into them, for much of it halts. Although the dedication to me is both pleasing and gratifying, I cannot help thinking that it would be to your interest not to publish anything before next spring. Take advantage of being as yet unknown, and give to the public from the beginning a proper opinion of your talent by a collective publication. Write a couple of pleasing, brilliant Studies--perhaps also a Notturno (or something of that sort), and an effective Fantasia on some conspicuous theme. Then let Schlesinger, Hartel, or Mechetti (to whom I will most gladly speak about your works beforehand) publish the six pieces--your Concerto and the C major Study, together with the later pieces--all together, so that publisher, critic, artist, and public all have to do with them at the same time. Instead of dishing up one little sweetmeat for the people, give them a proper dinner. I am very sorry I did not follow this plan myself; for, after much experience, I consider it far the best, especially for pianoforte works. In Weymar we will talk more fully and definitely about this. Conradi [Musician and friend in Berlin] is also to come. I don't require the Huguenot Fantasia at present. He will have time enough for it in Weymar. En attendant, Schlesinger will give him a modest payment for the work he has begun. Please kindly see about the enclosed letters for Freund as soon as possible.

"With all good wishes, I am, dear Kroll,

"Yours most sincerely,

"F. Liszt

"Port Marly, June 11th, 1844"

"First-rater"? It looks a little like polite damning to me Mr Grew! I cannot help noticing this:

Quote
Your Mazurkas are most excellent and talented. You have put a great deal into them--and, if you will allow me to speak quite freely--perhaps too much into them, for much of it halts.

Not very unequivocal is it?

Then there is this:

Quote
Although the dedication to me is both pleasing and gratifying, I cannot help thinking that it would be to your interest not to publish anything before next spring.

I don't know what Liszt had planned "before next Spring", but he clearly thought that anything Kroll published then might injure him.

Whether or not this Kroll ever did publish anything I have yet to bother to find out - did he?

Baz
Logged
martle
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 6685



« Reply #304 on: 12:11:45, 10-06-2008 »

Quote
"My dear good Kroll,

"What a first-rate man you are to me"

We wonder whether Liszt is himself deemed a first-rater; and if not, how can we possibly trust his judgement?

Logged

Green. Always green.
autoharp
*****
Posts: 2778



« Reply #305 on: 02:07:15, 11-06-2008 »

We wonder whether Liszt is himself deemed a first-rater

Most definitely in the autoharp household.
Logged
Sydney Grew
Guest
« Reply #306 on: 02:08:04, 11-06-2008 »

Whether or not this Kroll ever did publish anything I have yet to bother to find out - did he?

The British Library has only his three Bach editions. What institution corresponds in Germany to the British Library, and how much of it survived World War II and the Hilterites; can any member tell us?
Logged
Sydney Grew
Guest
« Reply #307 on: 10:32:55, 11-06-2008 »

Anybody who thinks intelligently about this piece will in time come to realise that it is a "tone poem" in miniature depicting the Dawn Chorus as heard by Bach on a wonderful sunny morning in early Spring. This should also explain the highly exotic key signature!

Quite audibly, the first section represents the early singing of the Singdrossel (Song Thrush) - or more precisely two of them singing counterpoint together. You can clearly hear the playful flapping of wings as each one sings beautifully to the other, no doubt in excited conversation as to where the current worm 'rich pickings' can be found.

You will also notice - with extreme clarity - that in the second half of the piece, these are joined by a Cuckoo (or possibly even a pair crooning away to each other). They are also animated and clearly enjoying the early morning sunshine.

If any further doubt could possibly exist that this is the 'programmatic content' of this little piece, I should urge you to listen to this performance - deliberately made to illustrate these new discoveries:

CLICK HERE

Leaving aside for a moment the proven skill of the executor, we are most favourably impressed by this performance principally because of its texture; we did not know until yesterday that the organ could "fine tune" both the tone quality and the volume of individual notes in this way. Perhaps the member will tell us how it is done; it must be something rather different from the "velocity" of a computerised keyboard must not it? And the strong reverberation too plays its by no means minor part in the achievement of a masterly effect. There is just one question though: our donkey seemed to be quite lost amid the summer meadows and how can that be?

To-day the anonymous crackpot presents Bach's F sharp major Prelude from Book II of his Well-Tempered Clavier or Preludes and Fugues through all the tones and semitones, both as regards the "tertia major" or "Ut Re Mi," and as concerns the "tertia minor" or "Re Mi Fa"; for the use and profit of the musical youth desirous of learning. (It is after all primarily a didactic collection then is it not?): rapid-share / send-space.

This item is couched in Bach's most enigmatic duetto style, and we do not believe that our crackpot has penetrated to the soul of the music - if indeed it has one. Perhaps there are members able to point out what has been missed. Tovey calls parts of it "delightful" and "humorous" but we are unable quite to see that.

Wanda for one makes it sound very different and she has clearly found a good deal more in it! If members have time to-day for only one version we advise them to go for hers.

Riemann describes the opening of the work as a "pithy, somewhat pathetic little period" but since he wrote it in German it is his translator J.S. Shedlock B.A. whom we have to thank for the startling alliteration. Interestingly in his book published by Augener in London there is no talk of "bars," but only of "measures." "It is in fact astonishing," he continues, "how faithfully Bach adheres to his themes, and how, by wrapping the one in the drapery of the other, he procures new situations." Riemann describes in great detail all Bach's many modulations, and does his best, too, to ensure that we do not miss the Mixolydian episode of four bars shortly before the conclusion.
« Last Edit: 13:52:13, 11-06-2008 by Sydney Grew » Logged
Baz
Guest
« Reply #308 on: 12:55:05, 11-06-2008 »


...There is just one question though: our donkey seemed to be quite lost amid the summer meadows and how can that be?


Some 'naturists' (like me) feel more at home with the birds and the bees, while others (evidently like Mr Grew) are more drawn towards things bestial. I wonder what he might have had in mind - perhaps he would care to CLICK on the donkey and see whether this suits...but I must warn him that bestiality rarely brings out the best in me!

Logged
Sydney Grew
Guest
« Reply #309 on: 17:15:27, 11-06-2008 »

Let us move quickly onwards to this thrilling rendition - of course some members will be more touched than others - of a popular work by the divine Pachelbel. Bach looked up to him you know. . . .

P.S. an alternative link and one probably handier for members' ready appropinquation is this one.

And here no doubt enormously encouraged by responses engendered he or it may be some one else does it all over again but without the initial two fingers.
« Last Edit: 03:07:30, 12-06-2008 by Sydney Grew » Logged
Sydney Grew
Guest
« Reply #310 on: 10:22:27, 12-06-2008 »

To-day in our long series of crackpot versions we have come to the Fugue in F sharp major from Bach's Book II. It is much more interesting than its Prelude! Riemann gives a long analysis - six pages - the perusal of which we can unhesitatingly recommend to members (we wish it were possible to include it all). He concludes by drawing our attention to the work's undisturbed symmetry, and reminds us that Debrois van Bruyck looked upon it as the normal type of the species.

Tovey tells us that the Countersubject is as important as the Subject - something one of our members has already said, and not of this Fugue merely!

Here (rapid-share or send-space) is the crackpot version - pleasant enough! - and here for comparison is a rendition by a contributor new to this thread, Friedrich by name. We like his Prelude but are not entirely convinced by his Fugue; since he was also a "jazz" player we should not expect from him too much though should we.
Logged
Baz
Guest
« Reply #311 on: 18:11:58, 12-06-2008 »

To-day in our long series of crackpot versions we have come to the Fugue in F sharp major from Bach's Book II. It is much more interesting than its Prelude! Riemann gives a long analysis - six pages - the perusal of which we can unhesitatingly recommend to members (we wish it were possible to include it all). He concludes by drawing our attention to the work's undisturbed symmetry, and reminds us that Debrois van Bruyck looked upon it as the normal type of the species.

Tovey tells us that the Countersubject is as important as the Subject - something one of our members has already said, and not of this Fugue merely!

Here (rapid-share or send-space) is the crackpot version - pleasant enough! - and here for comparison is a rendition by a contributor new to this thread, Friedrich by name. We like his Prelude but are not entirely convinced by his Fugue; since he was also a "jazz" player we should not expect from him too much though should we.


Friedrich's effort is not too bad really, it is? He really gets the 'French Overture' feel for the Prelude (perhaps the 'missing factor' Mr Grew was seeking in his posting yesterday?). Unless it has that pomposity and slightly over-dotted feeling of the tragédie lyrique (with its ostentatious runs and slides) it falls rather flat I think. Friedrich manages this well (as does Gustav in his effort).

But the Fugue is another matter! Although Friedrich's playing is clean and crisp, his ambivalence as to whether the trills should commence upon the upper or the main note is disturbing. Those who (in this repertoire) begin on the main note (instead of the upper) generally fall into a single classification: they have not yet understood the basic difference in concept between 'consonance' and 'dissonance'. But Friedrich here poses a conundrum since about the same number seem to begin on the main note as do upon (as they all should have done) the upper note! One can only assume, therefore, that he has not yet even considered the possibility of a difference between 'consonance' and 'dissonance'.

Baz
« Last Edit: 18:17:33, 12-06-2008 by Baz » Logged
Turfan Fragment
*****
Posts: 1330


Formerly known as Chafing Dish


« Reply #312 on: 18:32:46, 12-06-2008 »

Friedrich here poses a conundrum since about the same number seem to begin on the main note as do upon (as they all should have done) the upper note! One can only assume, therefore, that he has not yet even considered the possibility of a difference between 'consonance' and 'dissonance'.

As Syd says, he's a jazzer, eh? Sometimes, though, I think he doesn't want to be taken seriously by you types. Witness his Concerto for Cello and Wind Band. Here's a sample (I must admit I can't get enough of this music, not sure why)
5th Movement of Gulda, Concerto for Cello and Wind Band. F. Capuçon, vcl. Orch della Svizzera Italiana, A. Rabinovich-Berezovsky.

Logged

richard barrett
*****
Posts: 3123



« Reply #313 on: 18:37:52, 12-06-2008 »

(I must admit I can't get enough of this music, not sure why)

Thanks for that, Turf. It really spoiled my afternoon.
Logged
oliver sudden
Admin/Moderator Group
*****
Posts: 6411



« Reply #314 on: 18:38:57, 12-06-2008 »

Here's another crackpot interpretation to arrive from a parallel universe...

I've always wished the Mahler 1 finale ended with another truck-driver's gear change modulation like the one that happens earlier in the movement - he does one into D major at figure 34 which is quite stunning as most of us probably know but then wusses out at the corresponding spot after figure 53 rather than head up into E major.

I'd kind of like to do this in a concert some day. I imagine the audience reaction might be quite something. Although the brasses in particular might have something to say about it.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 19 20 [21] 22 23 ... 46
  Print  
 
Jump to: