The Radio 3 Boards Forum from myforum365.com
04:39:37, 01-12-2008 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Whilst we happily welcome all genuine applications to our forum, there may be times when we need to suspend registration temporarily, for example when suffering attacks of spam.
 If you want to join us but find that the temporary suspension has been activated, please try again later.
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  

Pages: 1 ... 43 44 [45] 46
  Print  
Author Topic: At Least Ninety-Six Crackpot Interpretations  (Read 11251 times)
Baz
Guest
« Reply #660 on: 11:11:11, 28-08-2008 »

The fifth section of Bach's ideal service is occupied by two settings of the Confessional hymn "Aus tiefer Not schrei' ich zu dir" ("In deep need I cry out to you"). The first of these - B.W.V. 686 - is the piece which Sydney Grew the Elder tells us was in 1946 regarded as "impracticable, because of its double pedal part." That does not seem to have much deterred Simon, who played it in  public just the other day. The work is written in six-part harmony, and is as Sydney Grew explains:

"Cast in the form of fugal preparations - each line is preluded, or 'prepared,' by a short fugal working of a subject created from the melody of the line. It is composition in which the poetical subject changes as well as the musical. The poetical course, which is from the gravity of a sense of sin to the radiant joy of a sense of redemption, is the course of thought in the hymn itself, and it gives the piece in brief the total form and character of a Cantata or Passion. Buxtehude among the northerners wrote well in this manner, a fact illustrated by his arrangements of 'Christ unser Herr zum Jordan kam' and 'Durch Adams Fall.'"

Here (rapid-share / send-space) is a memorably misguided interpretation by an anonymous crackpot - one pedal is much louder than the other! - and here is Helmut's much grander attempt.

Here too as second comparison is Simon having a go - and very good he is is he not in the main, despite his being too fagged to honour Bach's repeat marking!


In moving here from yesterday's sacrament of Baptism to today's sacrament of Penitence, we thank Mr Grew for providing three attempts at BWV 686. We must first say how much we actually enjoyed Mr Grew's own "crackpot" effort! Although it was nothing like the actual sound the composer had in mind, we must at once say that - of all versions available publicly - this one will repay careful listening since it (more than the composer could ever have envisaged we believe!) provides the clearest exposition of the work's structure. Alone of all performances we have ever heard, this essay demonstrates in the clearest audible way the manner in which the cantus firmus is employed, and we must therefore congratulate Mr Grew for giving us this learning experience. We do not agree with the Member that his conception was "misguided" at all - in fact we feel that his effort reveals a complete understanding of the composer's creation.

The chorale melody, together with a "poetic" translation (not our own incidentally!) of verse 1 is here...



In deep distress I cry to thee,
Lord God, hear thou my calling;
Thy gracious ear bend low to me
And open to my crying!
For if thou wilt observance make
Of sin and deed unjustly done,
Who can, Lord, stand before thee?


N.B. It should be noted that in the second stave, before the penultimate note, the orphaned stem should be joined to the "missing" note G which the modern engraver omitted!

We were unable to hear any problems with Helmut's repeat, and enjoyed his rendition very much. Simon's too was (despite a "fluff" in the pedals once) also enjoyable, although we were very annoyed that he denied us (and the composer) the specified repeat of the first section.

This piece is, unusually, written for 6 voices. Using (in this case) a double pedal part (requiring throughout the use of both feet) the cantus firmus is placed strategically in the right foot throughout (though we should not infer from this that Bach was necessarily right-handed). Double-pedal writing is rare, but not unknown (and we find it again in Bach's early Weimar setting of An Wasserflussen Babylon BWV 653b).

If Sydney Grew Senior regarded it as "impractical, because of its double pedal part" we can see that he was wrong through the performances Mr Grew (Junior) has adduced. But one thing is we feel sure: no player ever struggled with the 6 parts of this piece anywhere near as much as did the engraver! As the following will demonstrate, Bach eventually gave up correcting engraving mistakes, and evidently decided that if the publication was ever to happen some of the remaining errors would have to stand for performers to resolve for themselves!

Thus we notice the following remaining errors:

bar 28 - the second note in the lower pedal part was incorrectly engraved as E, but then altered to C (with the E still left there!)

bar 43 - the last note of the RH appears as a crotchet instead of a minim

bar 46 - the last note of the lower LH voice was omitted, and then subsequently half-inserted without stem

bar 52 - the fourth note in the lower pedal part was originally incorrectly written as C, but this note was then erased and the corrected note D was not inserted instead as it should have been

bar 53 - the second note of the lower pedal part still lacks the # sign

Fortunately Bach must have judged - in proof-reading this piece for the n-th time (!) - that the expense and time-delay involved in further correction was unmerited, especially since even the dumbest musician would be able to see at a stroke a) what the correct reading should have been, and b) that the remaining mistakes must lie at the door of the crackpot engraver (and not the composer).





Baz

[14.43 - just found the error in bar 43! Others may turn up, and I'll edit as necessary]

[15.38 - note made of the error in the above chorale melody before the penultimate note]
« Last Edit: 15:45:33, 28-08-2008 by Baz » Logged
Sydney Grew
Guest
« Reply #661 on: 08:49:13, 29-08-2008 »

As the following will demonstrate, Bach eventually gave up correcting engraving mistakes, and evidently decided that if the publication was ever to happen some of the remaining errors would have to stand for performers to resolve for themselves!

Thus we notice the following remaining errors:

bar 28 - the second note in the lower pedal part was incorrectly engraved as E, but then altered to C (with the E still left there!)

bar 43 - the last note of the RH appears as a crotchet instead of a minim

bar 46 - the last note of the lower LH voice was omitted, and then subsequently half-inserted without stem

bar 52 - the fourth note in the lower pedal part was originally incorrectly written as C, but this note was then erased and the corrected note D was not inserted instead as it should have been

bar 53 - the second note of the lower pedal part still lacks the # sign

Fortunately Bach must have judged - in proof-reading this piece for the n-th time (!) - that the expense and time-delay involved in further correction was unmerited, especially since even the dumbest musician would be able to see at a stroke a) what the correct reading should have been, and b) that the remaining mistakes must lie at the door of the crackpot engraver (and not the composer).

We thank the Member for those remarks, for the words and music, and for his amusing description of Bach's many trials at the hands of his bumbling engravers! Thankfully both the Novello and the Bach-Gesellschaft editions have as far as we can see corrected all the errors the Member cites.

To-day we come to the second setting of the Penitence hymn "Aus tiefer Not," B.W.V. 687, which is this time set in four parts, the uppermost of which is devoted throughout to the chorale melody. Again we cannot do better than turn to Sydney Grew's commentary:

"The work is another working of the whole melody with changing fugal preparations. Here is fine and intricate science, for the fugue subjects are worked in direct and inverted condition, as in the opening chorus of the cantata 'Wär' Gott nicht mit uns dieser Zeit.' The music is lofty and unique in concentrated spiritual power among the larger Bach organ chorales."

Our anonymous crackpot has here (rapid-share and send-space) prepared an arrangement for ooh-aahing boy soprano accompanied by bass clarinet, cimbalom, and strangulated oboe.

As contrast Members might try Wolfgang; how slowly he plays! Indeed a good deal too slowly we think, and his Cantus Firmus is very inadequately brought out.
« Last Edit: 09:03:55, 29-08-2008 by Sydney Grew » Logged
Baz
Guest
« Reply #662 on: 09:04:13, 29-08-2008 »

Due to being away all day today we shall not be able to catch up with the Member's postings until tomorrow!

Baz
Logged
Baz
Guest
« Reply #663 on: 10:42:51, 30-08-2008 »

...To-day we come to the second setting of the Penitence hymn "Aus tiefer Not," B.W.V. 687, which is this time set in four parts, the uppermost of which is devoted throughout to the chorale melody. Again we cannot do better than turn to Sydney Grew's commentary:

"The work is another working of the whole melody with changing fugal preparations. Here is fine and intricate science, for the fugue subjects are worked in direct and inverted condition, as in the opening chorus of the cantata 'Wär' Gott nicht mit uns dieser Zeit.' The music is lofty and unique in concentrated spiritual power among the larger Bach organ chorales."

Our anonymous crackpot has here (rapid-share and send-space) prepared an arrangement for ooh-aahing boy soprano accompanied by bass clarinet, cimbalom, and strangulated oboe.

As contrast Members might try Wolfgang; how slowly he plays! Indeed a good deal too slowly we think, and his Cantus Firmus is very inadequately brought out.


We did not find Wolfgang's performance too bad, and the cf seemed quite clear. Perhaps the speed was just a little slow to convey crotchet beats, and possibly the rubato was a little overdone.

We do not feel that Bach could be bothered to do any further proof-reading upon page 2 of this setting! After all the date set for printing was intended to mark the bicentenary of Luther's sermon in St. Thomas's, and Leipzig's consequent acceptance of his teachings - time was short we feel.

In consequence we note (purely out of historical interest) that hardly any of the key signatures on p. 2 appear in the correct places. We also note that in the penultimate bar the crackpot engraver missed out the bass A# on beat 2 (it is difficult for us to think of any other possible note to insert, and all known editions assume the low A# which, we think, simply required a downstem from the beam to the required note, both of which are missing). Life was evidently stressed, and time short!




Baz
Logged
Sydney Grew
Guest
« Reply #664 on: 11:08:19, 30-08-2008 »

In consequence we note (purely out of historical interest) that hardly any of the key signatures on p. 2 appear in the correct places. We also note that in the penultimate bar the crackpot engraver missed out the bass A# on beat 2 (it is difficult for us to think of any other possible note to insert, and all known editions assume the low A# which, we think, simply required a downstem from the beam to the required note, both of which are missing). Life was evidently stressed, and time short!

Again we thank Mr. Iron for the engraving of B.W.V. 687 and his fascinating deductions about Bach's tribulations with the engravers.

To-day we come to the pair of pieces Bach wrote for the Communion section of his ideal service; they set the music of the hymn "Jesus Christus, unser Heyland" ("Jesus Christ, our Redeemer"). The first (B.W.V. 688) is a chorale fantasia consisting of a) one of Bach's characteristically curious and quirky duets on the organ manual(s), with the addition of b) the unadorned statement of the chorale melody on the organ pedals.

The duet music may be likened to pincers or a wedge, opening and closing in turns. And what daring semi-quaver syncopations break in from time to time! Here (rapid-share / send-space) is the work in an interpretation of suitable and not inconsiderable balminess, while for comparison let us to-day skip André and return to the young and presumably lively Matteo. But his performance too - although very different - is pretty peculiar - perhaps that is something to do with those harmonics mentioned by Mr. Autoharp a few days ago.
Logged
autoharp
*****
Posts: 2778



« Reply #665 on: 11:16:50, 30-08-2008 »

We venture to suggest (not for the first time) that Matteo's internal clock is not all that it should be.
Logged
Baz
Guest
« Reply #666 on: 12:41:54, 30-08-2008 »

...To-day we come to the pair of pieces Bach wrote for the Communion section of his ideal service; they set the music of the hymn "Jesus Christus, unser Heyland" ("Jesus Christ, our Redeemer"). The first (B.W.V. 688) is a chorale fantasia consisting of a) one of Bach's characteristically curious and quirky duets on the organ manual(s), with the addition of b) the unadorned statement of the chorale melody on the organ pedals.

The duet music may be likened to pincers or a wedge, opening and closing in turns. And what daring semi-quaver syncopations break in from time to time! Here (rapid-share / send-space) is the work in an interpretation of suitable and not inconsiderable balminess, while for comparison let us to-day skip André and return to the young and presumably lively Matteo. But his performance too - although very different - is pretty peculiar - perhaps that is something to do with those harmonics mentioned by Mr. Autoharp a few days ago.


We thank Mr Grew for his crackpot offering of BWV 688 - surely one of his most enterprising "minimalist" offerings to date! We agree with every single note of his reading, and marvel at the ingenuity with which - for the first time in our experience - a "minimalist" offering conveys to us something more than mere repetition! Indeed, we enjoyed every successive note of the cantus firmus, "yanking" as it did the mechanical motor-rhythms of the manual parts into ever new and exciting areas of tonality and modulation. (We cannot help wondering whether the Member had ever considered offering some of his evident wisdom to that presumably younger generation of composers who - it seems to us - merely regard musical discourse as something to be achieved by monotonous and stale note-repetition?)

But what of Matteo? Oh dear! We agree completely with member autoharp's succinct appraisal - it is indeed a truly dismal affair is not it? We are inclined indeed - using the Associated Board's own supposed criteria of assessment - to wonder at what stage in his life he will attain "Grade 5"? Member Grew should not we feel agonise for too long over Matteo's apparent misunderstanding of harmonics - we feel that he has not yet even understood the difference between harmonics and harmonicas. Who else we ask could conceivably come up with the idea that the LH part should be played upon a snarling 16' reed noise while the pedal cf is delivered upon yet another 8' reed noise? It seems to us that any player of reasonable intelligence should know that the very texture of this movement requires a clear LH register extending only to 8' pitch, and that then the pedal cf can only be delivered upon a contrasting sound using 4' pitch. It seems to us so clear that this textural layout is what the composer envisaged - but Matteo has other agendas. Indeed after listening to his opening we were inclined to shut him down! But we decided - in respect for Mr Grew's diligence in posting him - to hear him out. But we have to say this: this will be for the last time!. His lack of rhythm displeases us; his lack of taste for registration displeases us; his tempo displeases us. We shall not bother to load him up ever again.

Since, after listening to Matteo's miserable effort, members will be confused as to the intended speed and rhythm of this movement, we must hastily post the engraved music so that they can be reassured that their inability to comprehend ANYTHING is down to Matteo's total incompetence and not their own misunderstanding! We therefore post a) the chorale melody, b) the engraving of BWV 688, and c) the engraving of the succeeding Fugue BWV 689. Alert members will discover for themselves the few silly engraving mistakes (and we shall not bother with them any further than did the composer!)...











Baz
Logged
Sydney Grew
Guest
« Reply #667 on: 10:24:20, 31-08-2008 »

Well! We had not hitherto thought of Bach as forerunner of the Northern American mesmerist school! But again we are most grateful to Mr. Baziron for the engravings. We do not know whether or how exactly this music (B.W.V. 688) can be connected with the words of the hymn, but the passage at bar thirty-eight expresses the equivalent in music of a cry of pure joy does not it?

The second of Bach's settings of the Communion hymn "Jesus Christus, unser Heyland" (B.W.V. 689) is a chorale fugue in four parts, and unlike the second settings of the other hymns it is of considerable length. It contains Strawinsci-style stretti in the per arsin et thesin syncopation, it is very rich in harmony, and it opens out at the end to the clear presentation mostly in minims of the full melody of the chorale.

We are always taken aback by that E flat in bar twenty-six - the third quaver of the alto part - but after inspecting Mr. Baziron's score we suppose it must be right (the key-signature being F minor and Bach having used a system of accidentals different from the modern one):


Here (rapid-share / send-space) is the work in a notably crackpotitudinous interpretation, and here in contrast is this month's popular winner Helmut.
« Last Edit: 10:26:17, 31-08-2008 by Sydney Grew » Logged
Baz
Guest
« Reply #668 on: 11:21:40, 31-08-2008 »

Well! We had not hitherto thought of Bach as forerunner of the Northern American mesmerist school! But again we are most grateful to Mr. Baziron for the engravings. We do not know whether or how exactly this music (B.W.V. 688) can be connected with the words of the hymn, but the passage at bar thirty-eight expresses the equivalent in music of a cry of pure joy does not it?

The second of Bach's settings of the Communion hymn "Jesus Christus, unser Heyland" (B.W.V. 689) is a chorale fugue in four parts, and unlike the second settings of the other hymns it is of considerable length. It contains Strawinsci-style stretti in the per arsin et thesin syncopation, it is very rich in harmony, and it opens out at the end to the clear presentation mostly in minims of the full melody of the chorale.

We are always taken aback by that E flat in bar twenty-six - the third quaver of the alto part - but after inspecting Mr. Baziron's score we suppose it must be right (the key-signature being F minor and Bach having used a system of accidentals different from the modern one):


Here (rapid-share / send-space) is the work in a notably crackpotitudinous interpretation, and here in contrast is this month's popular winner Helmut.


No imputation of being a forerunner of the said School was intended - at least with respect to Bach that is!

The reading at bar 26 is quite correct, but we feel this tells us something important about Bach's conception of tempo. Helmut's performance is, we feel, the fastest pace practicable for this fugue. At the said point it is still just possible in Helmut's performance to hear (as Bach intended) the appearance of the Eb as being aesthetically a movement of the preceding E-natural (top voice) downwards chromatically. The crackpot speed being brisker loses this subtlety and we sense the E-natural merely cut off and the appearance of the Eb (second voice) "intrusive". Furthermore, as this movement progresses it becomes increasingly chromatic in its harmonic and linear movement. This also, we feel, insists upon a very moderate tempo overall in order for these subtle details to have their proper expressive effect and meaning.

We have very much enjoyed member Grew's exposition of Bach's 3rd Keyboard Practice, today's offering being the final movement (since he eliminated at the outset the opening Prelude and closing Fugue). We have indeed been inspired to undertake considerable revision and renewal in performing this magnificent collection privately (and this would not have happened without member Grew's enthusiasm and diligence for which we are most grateful).

Baz
Logged
harmonyharmony
*****
Posts: 4080



WWW
« Reply #669 on: 11:33:36, 31-08-2008 »

Well! We had not hitherto thought of Bach as forerunner of the Northern American mesmerist school!

I have read (or heard) such an implication relating to the Prelude no 1 of Book 1 of the WTC...
Logged

'is this all we can do?'
anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965)
http://www.myspace.com/itensemble
Sydney Grew
Guest
« Reply #670 on: 10:26:33, 01-09-2008 »

We thank Mr. Baziron for his gratifying remarks! The Third Keyboard Practice is indeed a magnificent collection which we now after having learned so much from the member's commentaries appreciate far more. Here as a kind of post scriptum to the collection is a performance of a Chorale Prelude of Bach which was "rediscovered" as recently as March of this year. It is thought to have passed from Wilhelm Friedemann Bach to Johann Christian Bach (1743 to 1814 - a distant relation), then to Johann Kötschau, next to Friedrich Gotthold, and to have subsequently been copied in 1877 by Wilhelm Rust. The copy then resurfaced at an auction in Leipsic in 2008. The work, to which the number B.W.V. 1128 has now been assigned, is a Fantasia on the Chorale "Wo Gott der Herr nicht bei uns hält."
Logged
Baz
Guest
« Reply #671 on: 15:55:55, 01-09-2008 »

We thank Mr. Baziron for his gratifying remarks! The Third Keyboard Practice is indeed a magnificent collection which we now after having learned so much from the member's commentaries appreciate far more. Here as a kind of post scriptum to the collection is a performance of a Chorale Prelude of Bach which was "rediscovered" as recently as March of this year. It is thought to have passed from Wilhelm Friedemann Bach to Johann Christian Bach (1743 to 1814 - a distant relation), then to Johann Kötschau, next to Friedrich Gotthold, and to have subsequently been copied in 1877 by Wilhelm Rust. The copy then resurfaced at an auction in Leipsic in 2008. The work, to which the number B.W.V. 1128 has now been assigned, is a Fantasia on the Chorale "Wo Gott der Herr nicht bei uns hält."


This piece, for the posting of which we thank Mr Grew, appears recently to have passed from the status of "uncertain" to "certain" after scrutiny by Bach experts who have accordingly allotted the tag "BWV 1128b". Yet we cannot help wondering why?

The only known copy dates only from 1877 in the hand of Wilhelm Rust, as is shown on the last page...



...and this cannot allow any forensic examination beyond matters of style. So it must be there that we confine our investigations.

To be honest it is a very dreary and repetitive piece, forever stuck in G minor and its relative Bb major. I know of no other single piece by this composer that (even where it does not go on in excess of 6 minutes) shows such lack of tonal ambition and variety. If it was the work of a 20-year-old Bach we should have expected better than this we feel!

Looking at the first page - which gets off to a very unpromising (if not actually boring) start - we notice at once certain elements that (in our opinion) are technically and artistically very much below the standard of composition expected from Bach...



...there in bar 5, where the RH enters with a decorated melody, a glaring pair of direct parallel octaves (no less) scream out as the bass line and the RH melody both descend on to the Cs of beat three from their simultaneously-sounded Ds! Bach would never have been content with this - he should always have used contrary motion to settle such basic errors of grammar and syntax. But that is not all!

As the piece moves into bar 6 so begins a really dreary, meandering and meaningless upper melody that duets with the decorated chorale below it - but restricted only to two voices. Texturally this is poor, but melodically the upper voice is of extremely low quality in its lack of imposed voice-leading. This sin is then merely repeated as the other voices join in the confusion, as shown on the surviving page 1...



Other stylistic details that show poor un-Bachian handling are noted at the cadences, especially at bar 14 where the melodic cadence in the RH is merely cut away (as if with a pair of scissors). Yet in the canon of Bach's chorale settings it is always at points of cadence that particular emphasis and expression is given. This does not sound anything like the Bach we know.

Throughout the whole affair, the piece seems unable to make up its mind whether the prevailing number of voices is 2 or 4 (there being almost as much 2-voice writing as 3- or 4-voice). Bach usually thins his texture to create emphasis upon the structural/thematic entry of voices that have temporarily been silent - but here the piece meanders on seemingly aimless, almost struggling to build a credible structure out of a simple chorale melody.

We are not, therefore, convinced that this is at all by Bach (despite what others claim). It might just as well (from the evidence presented) be a work by W. F. Bach - or indeed any lesser figure from that circle - attempting a pastiche or exercise "in the style of" the great man.

If one of our students had presented that to us as an exercise we should have praised it; but then we should have taken him/her through a genuine example to identify the refinements that were needed. This piece is - to us - no different I am afraid.

Baz
« Last Edit: 17:21:17, 01-09-2008 by Baz » Logged
Daniel
*****
Posts: 764



« Reply #672 on: 13:50:12, 08-09-2008 »

Baz,

I have an mp3 file on my computer whose only tag is 'ciaccona', and I think I must have downloaded it from the following link prior to its expiry:


I would be very happy indeed to know who the performer is, and was wondering if you remembered and wouldn't mind letting me know?

Thanks, from a crackpot reader.



Logged
Baz
Guest
« Reply #673 on: 14:40:39, 08-09-2008 »

Baz,

I have an mp3 file on my computer whose only tag is 'ciaccona', and I think I must have downloaded it from the following link prior to its expiry:


I would be very happy indeed to know who the performer is, and was wondering if you remembered and wouldn't mind letting me know?

Thanks, from a crackpot reader.





Hi Daniel - the only one I posted was played by Sigiswald Kuijken, so that must be the one you are thinking of.

Baz
Logged
Daniel
*****
Posts: 764



« Reply #674 on: 23:05:27, 08-09-2008 »

Thanks, Baz. It's absolutely amazing!
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 43 44 [45] 46
  Print  
 
Jump to: