|
IgnorantRockFan
|
 |
« Reply #15 on: 14:11:29, 04-06-2008 » |
|
In the programme, Alan Yentob had a strong reaction to one of Strauss's 4 last songs. The brain scan showed his brain was flooded with blood and excited all over.
[...]
But I am aware that some people get very strong reactions to the written or spoken word - especially poetry. Yentob's reaction was to a song, which by definition has words. Was it made clear in the programme whether Yentob was familar with the song in advance and knew what the words were? If he was aware of the words, how can it be verified that his reaction was to the music and not to the words? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Allegro, ma non tanto
|
|
|
|
richard barrett
|
|
« Reply #16 on: 14:33:18, 04-06-2008 » |
|
In the programme, Alan Yentob had a strong reaction to one of Strauss's 4 last songs. The brain scan showed his brain was flooded with blood and excited all over.
[...]
But I am aware that some people get very strong reactions to the written or spoken word - especially poetry. Yentob's reaction was to a song, which by definition has words. Was it made clear in the programme whether Yentob was familar with the song in advance and knew what the words were? If he was aware of the words, how can it be verified that his reaction was to the music and not to the words? ... or indeed to the voice, which has a tendency in vocal music to draw the listener's ear towards it, whether the words are audible/comprehensible or not. I didn't see the programme but I recall having what might have been a similar reaction to the same piece. Ages ago, at a time when I knew little of Strauss apart from the symphonic poems, I was given a CD of the 4 letzte Lieder and it happened several times that I put it on while working, and at a certain moment (the vocal entry "Und die Seele, unbewacht..." after the violin solo in "Beim Schlafengehen") the music caused me to put down what I was doing and listen intensely. Subsequent to these occurrences I became somewhat obsessed with these songs for a while. Steven Mithen in The Singing Neanderthals hypothesises a time in human evolution when music and speech were not two separate things. Reading that book sorted out many things for me: whether its speculations are true or not (and we might never know) it makes a much more plausible account of the fundamental relationship between music and words than I've come across elsewhere. The soul is that to which James Brown is godfather, is it not? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Ruby2
|
|
« Reply #17 on: 14:43:06, 04-06-2008 » |
|
Steven Mithen in The Singing Neanderthals hypothesises a time in human evolution when music and speech were not two separate things. Reading that book sorted out many things for me: whether its speculations are true or not (and we might never know) it makes a much more plausible account of the fundamental relationship between music and words than I've come across elsewhere.
That proposal sounds highly plausible to me. I think there's a very fine line between speech and song - if you "sing" a sentence to the wrong tune you sound like a lunatic. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Two wrongs don't make a right. But three rights do make a left." - Rohan Candappa
|
|
|
|
richard barrett
|
|
« Reply #18 on: 14:57:11, 04-06-2008 » |
|
I do recommend though, Ruby, that you read the book. I think my recommendation would be seconded by a few others in these parts. To my mind it's easily the most important book ever published on the origins of music and its relation to speech. Nor is it a dry technical read by any means, it's written for a general audience by a palaeontologist and music enthusiast.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Ruby2
|
|
« Reply #19 on: 15:24:21, 04-06-2008 » |
|
I do recommend though, Ruby, that you read the book. I think my recommendation would be seconded by a few others in these parts. To my mind it's easily the most important book ever published on the origins of music and its relation to speech. Nor is it a dry technical read by any means, it's written for a general audience by a palaeontologist and music enthusiast.
Thanks - I certainly will.  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Two wrongs don't make a right. But three rights do make a left." - Rohan Candappa
|
|
|
|
thompson1780
|
|
« Reply #20 on: 16:02:43, 04-06-2008 » |
|
In the programme, Alan Yentob had a strong reaction to one of Strauss's 4 last songs. The brain scan showed his brain was flooded with blood and excited all over.
[...]
But I am aware that some people get very strong reactions to the written or spoken word - especially poetry. Yentob's reaction was to a song, which by definition has words. Was it made clear in the programme whether Yentob was familar with the song in advance and knew what the words were? If he was aware of the words, how can it be verified that his reaction was to the music and not to the words? Well it can't. Your [...] has turned my post into a question about Alan Yentob's reaction to his Strauss compared with other people's reaction to words. But when you read my post as I had it, the Yentob phrase was just a phrase to introduce the 'all-encompasing' feeling music gives me when I listen. The real question is about "the experience of listening to (moving) music" compared with "the experience of written / spoken words". Sorry I am not being very clear today. Ruby, your point about someone reading words and emphasising the wrong word for you.... is that analogous to a musical interpretation you cannot relate to? I find that some musical performances grab me / consume me / transport me, but when something goes slightly awry (e.g. intonation) the spell is broken and I am back in the concert hall. Tommo |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Made by Thompson & son, at the Violin & c. the West end of St. Paul's Churchyard, LONDON
|
|
|
|
Sydney Grew
Guest
|
|
« Reply #21 on: 16:08:54, 04-06-2008 » |
|
. . . the most important book ever published on the origins of music and its relation to speech. In his Comparative Grammar of the Teutonic Languages James Helfenstein explains that the whole system of Indo-European languages arose in the Stone Age out of the original utterance of just three musical tones by the primitive pre-linguistic people of those days: They spent their days saying "Eee aah ooo" to each other apparently! |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: 16:14:58, 04-06-2008 by Sydney Grew »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Ruby2
|
|
« Reply #22 on: 16:16:12, 04-06-2008 » |
|
Ruby, your point about someone reading words and emphasising the wrong word for you.... is that analogous to a musical interpretation you cannot relate to? I find that some musical performances grab me / consume me / transport me, but when something goes slightly awry (e.g. intonation) the spell is broken and I am back in the concert hall.
Tommo
Yes, I was thinking that as I typed it actually: that I was opening my point to an equivalent distraction when hearing music (OK so neither have an absolutely direct and exclusive route to the emotions - I was just thinking aloud really. I should stop that. ) |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Two wrongs don't make a right. But three rights do make a left." - Rohan Candappa
|
|
|
|
richard barrett
|
|
« Reply #23 on: 16:16:52, 04-06-2008 » |
|
Such speculative claims as are made in Helfenstein's Comparative Grammar, published as it was in 1870, date from a time when comparative linguistics was in its infancy and palaeoanthropology hardly even that, and therefore can safely be dismissed as the product of intelligent but uninformed guesswork.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Ruby2
|
|
« Reply #24 on: 16:24:40, 04-06-2008 » |
|
They spent their days saying "Eee aah ooo" to each other apparently!
That's just Somerset, surely. [off to the cloakroom...] |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: 16:27:22, 04-06-2008 by Ruby2 »
|
Logged
|
"Two wrongs don't make a right. But three rights do make a left." - Rohan Candappa
|
|
|
|
Baz
Guest
|
|
« Reply #25 on: 16:28:33, 04-06-2008 » |
|
. . . the most important book ever published on the origins of music and its relation to speech. In his Comparative Grammar of the Teutonic Languages James Helfenstein explains that the whole system of Indo-European languages arose in the Stone Age out of the original utterance of just three musical tones by the primitive pre-linguistic people of those days... Ah, but this only takes us back to UNISON, FOURTH AND FIFTH ("All other intervals are sh*t"). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhHAojVyeG0 |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
IgnorantRockFan
|
|
« Reply #26 on: 16:57:21, 04-06-2008 » |
|
Your [...] has turned my post into a question about Alan Yentob's reaction to his Strauss compared with other people's reaction to words.
But when you read my post as I had it, the Yentob phrase was just a phrase to introduce the 'all-encompasing' feeling music gives me when I listen. The real question is about "the experience of listening to (moving) music" compared with "the experience of written / spoken words".
Sorry I am not being very clear today. No, my fault for siezing on one aspect of your post and ignoring the actual question. But I'm still intrigued by the question of whether the effects seen in Yentob's brain were actually caused by music or words. I wish I had seen the programme. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Allegro, ma non tanto
|
|
|
|
Il Grande Inquisitor
|
|
« Reply #27 on: 18:40:33, 04-06-2008 » |
|
In the programme, Alan Yentob had a strong reaction to one of Strauss's 4 last songs. The brain scan showed his brain was flooded with blood and excited all over.
[...]
But I am aware that some people get very strong reactions to the written or spoken word - especially poetry. Yentob's reaction was to a song, which by definition has words. Was it made clear in the programme whether Yentob was familar with the song in advance and knew what the words were? If he was aware of the words, how can it be verified that his reaction was to the music and not to the words? Yes, it was. Alan Yentob chose three pieces of music which evoked strong, but contrasting emotional responses for him; 'Amarillo' as a 'happy' song, an example of 'acid' (no title was given) which evoked feelings of anger in him, and the Strauss Beim Schlafengehen, which he admitted was very special to him and was his ultimate choice on Desert Island Discs. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency
|
|
|
|
thompson1780
|
 |
« Reply #28 on: 19:55:47, 04-06-2008 » |
|
That still doesn't answe IRF's question. Perhaps Yentob chose the Strauss because of its words. His instruction was to pick a piece of music that moved him. There was no instruction as to how it should move him!
Shall we e mail him?
Tommo
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Made by Thompson & son, at the Violin & c. the West end of St. Paul's Churchyard, LONDON
|
|
|
|
MT Wessel
|
|
« Reply #29 on: 00:19:23, 05-06-2008 » |
|
" ..... Mumbo Jumbo (n): a grotesque idol said to have been worshipped by certain tribes or associations of Negroes. ....." " Margo Jumbo (n): A grotesque idol said to have been worshipped by certain tribes or associations of Tories." " Blairo Jumbo (n): A grotesque idol said to have been worshipped by certain tribes or associations of New Labourites." " Scargillo Jumbo (n): A benevolent God (with a bad press) who is worshipped by Owld Labourites like Me." Oh yes indeed. I fondly remember the days when ..... cont on page 94. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
lignum crucis arbour scientiae
|
|
|
|
