Sydney Grew
Guest
|
|
« Reply #15 on: 09:00:44, 03-08-2008 » |
|
14) "When we first played in England, we did not find one musician who understood what we were doing." - Nikolaus Harnoncourt, interview, Amsterdam (27th October 2005)
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Turfan Fragment
|
|
« Reply #16 on: 15:06:13, 03-08-2008 » |
|
15) "Many post-tonal pieces use their essentially contextual and motivic structure to allude to aspects of tonal practice. When these allusions occur at the deeper structural levels, the result is what might be called a middle-ground pun. Formations which had one meaning in a traditional setting are given a new meaning within a new musical structure. In particular, post-tonal music may mimic the appearance of prolongational spans without using truly prolongational voice leading. In such situations, it is crucial not to be seduced by the tonal reference into applying anachronistic aspects of tonal theory."
- Joseph N. Straus, "The Problem of Prolongation in Post-Tonal Music." Journal of Music Theory, XXXI/1 (1987)
If it flaps its ears like an elephant, it is NOT an elephant, because the composer says it is not. Nor should it remind you of an elephant.
|
|
« Last Edit: 19:06:54, 03-08-2008 by Turfan Fragment »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
time_is_now
|
|
« Reply #17 on: 15:49:45, 03-08-2008 » |
|
14) "When we first played in England, we did not find one musician who understood what we were doing." - Nikolaus Harnoncourt, interview, Amsterdam (27th October 2005) Did they really use the royal 'we'?
|
|
|
Logged
|
The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
|
|
|
martle
|
|
« Reply #18 on: 16:25:31, 03-08-2008 » |
|
... In such situations, it is crucial not to be seduced by the tonal reference into applying anachronistic aspects of tonal theory."
- Joseph N. Straus, "The Problem of Prolongation in Post-Tonal Music." Journal of Music Theory, XXXI/1 (1987)
Crucial to what?
|
|
|
Logged
|
Green. Always green.
|
|
|
time_is_now
|
|
« Reply #19 on: 16:28:10, 03-08-2008 » |
|
I have a confession to make. I can't find any fault with the Joseph N. Straus quotation (although he has written some very silly things elsewhere, including a whole book in which he misunderstands Harold Bloom quite deeply shallowly).
|
|
|
Logged
|
The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
|
|
|
Turfan Fragment
|
|
« Reply #20 on: 19:04:49, 03-08-2008 » |
|
The crackpottery of it was implicit in my subsequent gloss: that is not an elephant, it's just a pun on an elephant. Don't think about elephants!!
Q: What do you get when you cross an elephant and a rhinoceros?
A: Elephino!!
|
|
« Last Edit: 19:08:35, 03-08-2008 by Turfan Fragment »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
time_is_now
|
|
« Reply #21 on: 19:20:20, 03-08-2008 » |
|
The crackpottery of it was implicit in my subsequent gloss: that is not an elephant, it's just a pun on an elephant. Yes, but Straus doesn't say 'because the composer says it's not'. If it flaps its ears like an elephant but is made of papier mâché and has a man inside its head waving his arms up and down then it's not an elephant, just a pun on one. That seems reasonable to me. And 'middleground puns' is a logical extension of the idea, unless your anti-Schenkerianism extends to a disbelief in the notions of fore-/middle-/background as existing in any sense at all. Which mine doesn't.
|
|
|
Logged
|
The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
|
|
|
Turfan Fragment
|
|
« Reply #22 on: 19:32:24, 03-08-2008 » |
|
I am not strictly anti-Schenkerian. The idea of prolongation means a great deal to me. But to hear references to tonality and misinterpret them as tonal structures is certainly a very apt way of analysing "post-tonal" music. To pretend those references are misleading rather than a productive contradiction is for me a huge pet peeve of undialectical thinking.
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
time_is_now
|
|
« Reply #23 on: 19:38:30, 03-08-2008 » |
|
to hear references to tonality and misinterpret them as tonal structures is certainly a very apt way of analysing "post-tonal" music. To pretend those references are misleading rather than a productive contradiction is for me a huge pet peeve of undialectical thinking.
I think I agree with most if not all of that. But I don't think Straus is saying those references are not there, or denying that part of the point of references to tonality is to be (mis?)hearable as tonal structures. Isn't he just saying that you don't need to look for deep-level prolongational coherence in order to do so, and that to spend time hunting it out is to risk missing the wood for the trees?
|
|
|
Logged
|
The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
|
|
|
Ian Pace
|
|
« Reply #24 on: 20:00:02, 03-08-2008 » |
|
Straus isn't really trying to determine whether post-tonal music can actually be 'tonal' or not (and there are various different definitions of what 'tonality' is, some of the broader of which would include, for example, a lot of non-Western art music organised around a single key centre for extended periods), he's simply talking about how certain analytical tools that are illuminating for earlier music are not the most apt for these more recent developments. I don't see any problem with that.
In terms of the pun issue, is it so wrong to say that certain music may on the surface appear like it belongs to a certain genre/tradition, but when one investigates it (which can mean simply listening to it repeatedly) more deeply, it turns out to be quite different? Straus's claim seems essentially along those lines.
|
|
|
Logged
|
'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
|
|
|
Ian Pace
|
|
« Reply #25 on: 20:01:34, 03-08-2008 » |
|
I am not strictly anti-Schenkerian. The idea of prolongation means a great deal to me. But to hear references to tonality and misinterpret them as tonal structures is certainly a very apt way of analysing "post-tonal" music. To pretend those references are misleading rather than a productive contradiction is for me a huge pet peeve of undialectical thinking.
It depends what it means to 'misinterpret' certain references; if one is saying that when one encounters tonal materials, one should deal with all that they imply on other levels of the music, for both cultural-historical and acoustic reasons, even if the music does not follow up on those (which most post-tonal music doesn't, really), then I'm all with that. But the best analytical tools surely try to encompass what is particular about a piece of music, not just the ways in which it accords with certain normative/generic practices. And I think Straus is implying that the old types of analysis for tonal music will tell us little about how this music is different.
|
|
« Last Edit: 20:04:44, 03-08-2008 by Ian Pace »
|
Logged
|
'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
|
|
|
Turfan Fragment
|
|
« Reply #26 on: 20:16:18, 03-08-2008 » |
|
I think Straus is implying that the old types of analysis for tonal music will tell us little about how this music is different.
By themselves, they wouldn't, no. But what do you make of the notion of 'incorrect analysis'? Does it not imply incorrect hearing, and is there such a thing as incorrect hearing? To talk about op.19/2 purely in terms of its tonal 'implications' I find far more revealing than the usual pc-analysis techniques that are taught in, for example, Straus's Introduction to Post-Tonal Theory, though a more complete picture would be given by thinking about both perspectives.
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
time_is_now
|
|
« Reply #27 on: 20:20:08, 03-08-2008 » |
|
It depends also on what 'post-tonal' repertoire we're talking about. I was thinking more about the importance of differentiating a David del Tredici-esque elephant from a Beethovenian elephant. Arguably if we're talking about [Schoenberg, I assume you mean!]'s Op 19 No 2 then the surface dissimilarity is great enough that the deeper dissimilarity doesn't need emphasising so much.
In other words, it's when it really does look like an elephant that you need to take some trouble to show the man inside waving his arms around.
|
|
|
Logged
|
The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
|
|
|
Ian Pace
|
|
« Reply #28 on: 20:39:06, 03-08-2008 » |
|
I think Straus is implying that the old types of analysis for tonal music will tell us little about how this music is different.
By themselves, they wouldn't, no. But what do you make of the notion of 'incorrect analysis'? Does it not imply incorrect hearing, and is there such a thing as incorrect hearing? It's not a notion that I think much of, but Straus doesn't use that term in the passage you cited. He says it's crucial not to use certain anachronistic analytical tools - presumably because he doesn't think they'll reveal very much? Of course one might argue that in some cases (like the Schoenberg) they do tell quite a bit, though surely many would agree that other tools are needed, including those which are less exclusively focused upon pitch? Whether or not the methods he explains and advocates elsewhere are necessarily any more illuminating is another question.
|
|
|
Logged
|
'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
|
|
|
Turfan Fragment
|
|
« Reply #29 on: 20:42:29, 03-08-2008 » |
|
Sorry this wasn't clear so far: the article from which I cited above crackpottery uses op. 19/2 as one of its examples.
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|