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IgnorantRockFan
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« Reply #16 on: 08:43:41, 29-07-2008 » |
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Well, speaking as one who confidently expects to hear the most recognisable riff in rock played in London's Excel arena tomorrow night, I might have an opinion here...  Listening to Beethoven's 5th last night, I realised the difference between it and Smoke on the Water. In the 5th, the riff is a starting point, and everything that comes after it kind of logically follows on. The whole first movement is like a set of variations on that theme. (Experts feel free to correct my impreessions.) In Smoke, the riff stands alone, disconnected from the rest of the music. It doesn't develop into the verses, the choruses, the guitar solo, the bass line (well, the bass does echo it to an extent), the rhythmic structure... they are all independent entities. Take all traces of the riff out of the song and you still have all the melody and harmony intact. When the riff does return (again and again), it's exactly that: just the riff, repeated exactly, unvarying, and unconnected with the ongoing melody. That's the way it sounds to me as a non-musican, anyway. I might be completely wrong  |
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Allegro, ma non tanto
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George Garnett
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« Reply #17 on: 08:49:55, 29-07-2008 » |
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So when people talk about going off on a ten-minute 'riff' in stand-up comedy the metaphor isn't quite right? The 'riff' really ought to be the underlying theme that starts it off rather than (as it seems to have become in that context) the elaborations of that theme? "Riffing' really ought to be the comic's equivalent of 'vamping till ready' but it's actually used to mean almost the opposite.
(I was going to offer Nellie the Elephant but I think maybe I'll keep quiet about that.)
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martle
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« Reply #18 on: 08:52:39, 29-07-2008 » |
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Don't see anything wrong with that, IRF. In fact it makes perfect sense to me. The 'riff' in the 5th is really treated as a motivic building block, perhaps to an extent never before attempted, not only forming 'thematic' material but driving the movement rhythmically, ever-present, from beginning to end. Here's another one that's hard not to recognise. It isn't rock, but it does the chewing-gum-in-your-memory business: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqashW66D7o |
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Green. Always green.
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burning dog
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« Reply #19 on: 09:39:29, 29-07-2008 » |
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Don't see anything wrong with that, IRF. In fact it makes perfect sense to me.
Thumbs up! |
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« Last Edit: 09:42:04, 29-07-2008 by burning dog »
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BobbyZ
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« Reply #20 on: 10:45:26, 29-07-2008 » |
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With the proviso that mentioning a riff in no way implies approval of same, I'll offer Money For Nothing as a contender for the thread title.
When does a riff evolve into a melody ? That Paganini theme for instance.
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Dreams, schemes and themes
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George Garnett
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« Reply #21 on: 11:08:33, 29-07-2008 » |
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A couple of supplementaries to BobbyZ's question, if I may, Mr Speaker?
Does a riff have to be in the bass for it to be a riff?
And what is the difference betwen a guitar riff and a guitar lick?
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martle
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« Reply #22 on: 11:22:27, 29-07-2008 » |
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A couple of supplementaries to BobbyZ's question, if I may, Mr Speaker?
Does a riff have to be in the bass for it to be a riff?
And what is the difference betwen a guitar riff and a guitar lick?
1) No. Although most of the ones here seem to be. 2) A riff repeats, a lick needn't. A lick I suppose is a memorable snippet, with distinctive features of contour/ gesture/ rhythm etc. But a riff is an ongoing building block (even if its only function is to establish a rhythm or a periodicity - four bars, say - and perhaps provide elements of harmonic character too; although there are examples of purely rhythmic (i.e. pitchless) riffs out there). We thank the honourable member. Now perhaps we can move on to the day's business in earnest.  |
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Green. Always green.
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George Garnett
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« Reply #23 on: 12:00:02, 29-07-2008 » |
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The House will be most grateful for that guidance, Mr Speaker. Returning to the main business before us  I would like to commend to Hon Members, Brown Sugar by the Rolling Stones (does it mean what I think it means?). |
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HtoHe
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« Reply #24 on: 12:26:23, 29-07-2008 » |
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The House will be most grateful for that guidance, Mr Speaker. Returning to the main business before us I would like to commend to Hon Members, Brown Sugar by the Rolling Stones (does it mean what I think it means?). The Stones offer rich pickings, George; especially as many of their songs are very widely known. In choosing my examples I was torn between Jumpin' Jack Flash, Satisfaction (which was mentioned on the radio feature), Honky Tonk Women (bit short for a riff maybe?) and Brown Sugar. As for the meaning, it's surely inconceivable that it's not at least partly a reference to the intimate combination between the sugar & slave trades. With that in mind the lyrics are, perhaps, not the most sensitive ever written. I've recently heard a suggestion that it's a reference to heroin but I suspect this is to confuse it with The Stranglers' Golden Brown (which isn't a song about our beloved PM). |
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Morticia
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« Reply #25 on: 12:31:32, 29-07-2008 » |
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The House will be most grateful for that guidance, Mr Speaker. Returning to the main business before us I would like to commend to Hon Members, Brown Sugar by the Rolling Stones (does it mean what I think it means?). George, I'd always thought it was a reference to, er, umm, embarrassed cough, something I'd rather not make a reference to here ...  I'm probably wrong, of course. Convents and all that. |
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George Garnett
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« Reply #26 on: 12:37:34, 29-07-2008 » |
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Yes, well, cough, I have a suspicion I thought, erm, much the same ... um. I think I'd prefer to write it down and have the note passed to the Clerk of the Court (not that I've ever managed to get inside a convent myself). It's rather charming in its way.
Anyway, ahem, it's a jolly nice riff.
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« Last Edit: 12:56:11, 29-07-2008 by George Garnett »
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IgnorantRockFan
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« Reply #27 on: 12:37:51, 29-07-2008 » |
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As for the meaning, it's surely inconceivable that it's not at least partly a reference to the intimate combination between the sugar & slave trades. I find it hard to believe there is that much depth in it. Surely it is simply descriptive of one of Jagger's sexual conquests, no more, no less? I will concede that the Rolling Stones had a greater number successful riffs than any other group (combined, probably  ). But still nothing to match Smoke on the Water  |
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Allegro, ma non tanto
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HtoHe
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« Reply #29 on: 13:05:44, 29-07-2008 » |
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I find it hard to believe there is that much depth in it. Surely it is simply descriptive of one of Jagger's sexual conquests, no more, no less?
I remember the rather lazy assumption being made that it was a reference to Bianca - which, on one level, it might be. But why make slavery so prominent in the lyric? I can't see that being coincidence. These were well-educated lads who would have learned about the slave triangle. I don't really know what George & Mort are referring to - cacophagy? Sodomy? If so, I think that really is reading too much into it. For my sins, I remember all the lyrics and I can't see anything other than the bald mention of the colour brown that might give that impression. But still nothing to match Smoke on the Water The one I really love - though it isn't quite as widely-known and might not be a proper riff - is that addictive little motif that runs through most of Gimme ShelterStill, I hope you enjoy your gig. Were the tickets very dear. As I was leaving London on the Monday after the Kennedy 5tet Prom I noticed that Return to Forever - one of the bands I was reminded of that Saturday night - were playing the dome. I checked the prices in case I wanted to delay my journey home. £45 a ticket. Strewth. I'd want Bob Dylan in the Purcell Room for that price (well, maybe that's a bit of an exaggeration but £45 for a stadium gig isn't my idea of good value). |
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