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Author Topic: Vibrato in String Playing  (Read 1037 times)
thompson1780
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« on: 11:47:13, 27-03-2007 »

Also posted at tOP

http://www.classicstoday.com/features/ClassicsToday-Vibrato.pdf

A long document, and I'll get round to reading it later............  But could lead to some interesting debate!

Tommo


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oliver sudden
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« Reply #1 on: 23:17:58, 11-04-2007 »

Oh what a load of utter nonsense. Has the man nothing better to do with his time? I take back anything I've ever said about anyone here who offers up strident and unsociably long postings. Well, maybe not everything.

I couldnae be airsed reading all this tripe. But I note the one time I do actually force the blur of words before my eyes to resolve into letters and words I see he's not only 'freely confess[ing] to not having surveyed all the extent [sic] academic work on this subject' but misinterpreting Falla's demand for 'vibrato linguale' which he thinks means vibrato but means flutter-tonguing.

'I truly believe that, as presented to the public, the position of the radical “authenticists” is so ridiculous as to require few if any of the rigors of the academic method to refute.' Oh good. As if he'd know what the 'academic method' might mean.

I don't need any academic rigor to write this either:

What a load of bowlocks.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #2 on: 23:23:22, 11-04-2007 »

Have you seen some of Mr Hurwitz's postings on r.m.c.r., where he (for example) portrays the increasing influence of marketing and PR on classical music as a positive step forward in making the music world more democratic?
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
oliver sudden
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« Reply #3 on: 23:26:16, 11-04-2007 »

I've seen his postings on Classics Today. I think that's enough.

Anyway. I think the situation demands that instead of wading through Hurwitz's Augeanly reeking prose I head off to a website near me to further my investigations of Mahler without continuous vibrato.



Ha! Take THAT, Hurwitz! Your rant has directly caused the purchase of two recordings by your arch-nemesis Sir Rog. Someone who unlike you is, well, do I have to point it out, a musician. Who whatever faults he may have puts his balls on the line for some damn fine ideas instead of spewing out feculent and incoherent verbiage. And I mix the metaphor advisedly.
« Last Edit: 23:35:48, 11-04-2007 by oliver sudden » Logged
Bryn
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« Reply #4 on: 23:41:15, 11-04-2007 »

Don't forget that SW is to spin Sir Rog's Mahler 4 on Friday, will you? I'm still holding back on ordering his 1st on Hänssler until the Amazon marketplace price drops. It's over 50% more than that of the 4th and 5th at the moment.
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #5 on: 21:27:03, 12-04-2007 »

Oh dear, but he's an irritating chap and some of his nonsense does fairly scream out of the page. He points out that orchestral playing and solo playing require different approaches and then attempts to extrapolate conclusions regarding orchestral sound from a perusal of the Enescu Third Sonata, his excuse being the folk-derived idiom of the sonata and 'the simple reason that the folk tradition was far closer to the way that string players behaved in centuries past than it is today'.

He takes the Baroque notion of vibrato as an ornament and then says that since Baroque musicians trilled everywhere they must have vibrated everywhere too as what they apparently went in for was 'strikingly dense agglomerations of musical clutter... “Good taste” has not been synonymous with “less” at all times in human history, and we can be sure that if vibrato was indeed considered an ornament in baroque music, it was used to the hilt'.

And most annoyingly of all, at every turn he reminds us that he's not a scholar. As if one mightn't have noticed already. Which means that time and time again he quotes something from a treatise implying vibrato might have been a sparingly-applied thing and 'rebuts' it with something like 'The artistic ideals of a select few, or the theory on paper, are seldom the reality of the working many. Flesch’s recollections are in fact a less-than-precise mish-mash of “how much” (Joachim, Thomson, Sarasate) and “how often” (Kreisler, Ysaye).'

He pretends to be finding evidence in the scores and yet ploughs on through Brahms and others with nothing more than their use of espressivo markings and his own equation of expression with vibrato as an argument. His first composer who mentions the word 'vibrato' is Liszt. But not in his orchestral pieces... in the piano music! Ah, but that's soon twisted round to his side of the ledger: 'when it comes to the orchestra, no additional urging is necessary because the timbre is already present'.

Quote
This intriguing albeit speculative theory adds further fuel to the notion that as the 19th
century went on, and composers marked their scores with increasing specificity,
orchestras naturally adapted to their demands by making some type of “continuous
vibrato” a sort of timbral “blank canvas.” There were simply many more passages that
required espressivo phrasing than there were moments that did not. The scores cited
above couldn’t be plainer in this regard. At this point in musical history it hardly mattered
if vibrato was or was not self-consciously “continuous;” the audible result as far as the
orchestra was concerned, if the composer’s directions were followed, would be much the
same either way.

Hang on, then. Doesn't that mean that when Sibelius or Elgar or Strauss or Wagner actually request vibrato it's the exception proving that the rule is that you don't use it all the time? No. Of course not. That would only be the case in a world where logic prevailed and thus has no place in Hurwitz's universe.

It's all just one big question-begging session. If you assume expression and tonal beauty equate to vibrato then of course you won't have any problem finding a call for vibrato everywhere you look. It's that very assumption that's, sorry, unhistorical and unimaginative. Time I did something more useful.
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thompson1780
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« Reply #6 on: 21:46:12, 12-04-2007 »

Oh dear.  I really must apologise for posting this 115 pages of drivel without having read any of it.  I have just flicked through the first 13 pages, and come to very much the same conclusions as you Ollie.  Intensely annoying to read (as he keeps reminding us he's no good) and very difficult to find any 'evidence' in any of the pages.

That's not to say he's wrong.  He may turn out to be right on page 114, with a realm of evidence in letters from Mahler about how he wanted continuous vibrato for his ideal orchestral sound, but I cannot even be bothered to flick through to find out.

I guess it will have to remain an unanswered question, until one of the historically informed performers produces something to say why they are right.  For the moment, I will enjoy listening to all types of interpretation......

Tommo
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« Reply #7 on: 22:30:41, 12-04-2007 »

I don't play any string instrument, but after playing with viola for a while I learn, that vibrato should not be too big (wobbly). It should be small vibrato and cover the string so it sounds nicer. Fingers on the finger board should not press it too much.
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thompson1780
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« Reply #8 on: 22:37:00, 12-04-2007 »

t-p

Perhaps the only 'should' as far as vibrato is concerned is that a player should be able to produce a variety of vibratos and choose the right one for the right musical effect.

Sometimes a wide vibrato is called for, and sometimes a fast narrow.  I do find that at the bottom of the viola "fast narrow" is a bit odd, and generally "fast narrow" is good high on strings.

And then there is the question of arm vibrato, finger vibrato, wrist vibrato.......

Brilliant isn't it! So many things to investigate and play with.  And so many things to try and bring to the music.

Have fun

Tommo
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Made by Thompson & son, at the Violin & c. the West end of St. Paul's Churchyard, LONDON
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« Reply #9 on: 08:12:09, 13-04-2007 »

Enescu concert piece for viola is very good. I loved it. Do you know it Tommo?
Also Brahms two songs for viola, piano and contralto are very beautiful.
I have music for viola sonata by Rebecce Clarke, but I don't know it. My viola player said it is beautiful.
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thompson1780
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« Reply #10 on: 10:03:11, 13-04-2007 »

All 3 are wonderful in different ways, IMO.  And if you are looking for other great viola chamber works, try Schumann Marchenbilder, Britten Lachrymae.....

Hang on - better on a different thread.

Tommo
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #11 on: 00:18:02, 14-04-2007 »

That's not to say he's wrong.

No, just to say he's extremely annoying and the argument as he presents it has more holes than an unusually holey colander.

The issue is nonetheless an important one - coming at it with the issue already decided doesn't do anyone any favours. The phenomenon itself is also of crucial importance to how listening has changed over the last century and a bit, and in particular over the last half a century, in which most people's listening patterns have moved irrevocably away from the live acoustical experience. Ironically that's exactly what has enabled the rediscovery of older styles of playing and singing which don't function in concert halls with thousands of seats; in that respect 'early music' is quite a modern phenomenon. Emma Kirkby's voice can't fill a 2500-seat hall but on a recording it doesn't need to to reach an audience.
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #12 on: 16:12:52, 01-05-2007 »

Ha! Take THAT, Hurwitz! Your rant has directly caused the purchase of two recordings by your arch-nemesis Sir Rog.

They took a while to arrive but I've now heard at least some of one of them. Namely the first movement and Adagietto (of course!) from Mahler's 5th. I must say I think it's the most astonishing single idea I've heard in Mahler performance. There's next to no vibrato in the Adagietto but it's anything but lifeless - the phrases are shaped with the right hand not the left, beautifully shaped at that and it's an extraordinary experience. It's not always spotlessly in tune but it's a live recording and without vibrato there's nothing to hide behind; it certainly doesn't bother me.

I can only echo the words of Jean-Charles Hoffèle in the April Diapason: "Tout mahlérien doit y jeter une oreille".
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Bryn
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« Reply #13 on: 16:20:25, 01-05-2007 »

By the way, what do people think of the level of string vibrato used in the recent Zinman Mahler 1? Hurwitz makes no mention of the subject in his enthusiastic review of that recording. Wink
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #14 on: 15:56:04, 15-08-2007 »

Here's something people might find interesting. The cellist David Popper was one of the few players in the second half of the 19th century from Central Europe who took up some of the attributes of the Franco-Flemish schools of string playing, including the use of continuous vibrato. After a concert Popper gave in Leipzig in February 1863, one critic gave a generous review, provoking a letter of complaint about Popper's use of vibrato. The original critic defended Popper, saying 'one could not discover any trace of the intolerable 'vibrating' of some virtuosos; the manner of presntation which he applied and which is necessary for the required warmth of the tone was only the shaking (or oscillating) vibrato movement as it is legitimately taught' (Neue Zeitschrift für Musik, March 1863) The original complainant responded as follows:

Next, objection is raised to our statement that Mr. David Popper had tried the nerves of his listeners by continuous vibrato and it is claimed that the vibrato of the gentleman had been the ‘shaking (or oscillating) movement as it is legitimately taught.’ Well, we will not insist on the term: we did not, thus, perceive a single tone from Mr. D. Popper to which – the tempo permitting – he did not apply his ‘legitimately taught vibrato movement’; if the critic of the ‘Neue Zeitschrift für Musik’ found this to his liking it only proves that he no longer has any sense for a natural homogeneous tone and that his hearing organs have been infected by a sickness of taste which at the moment is indeed the fashion; perhaps he will even go a little further and try to apply a legitimately executed trill to each note of a vocal piece as had already happened. (NZfM, November 1863)

(further documentation can be found in Stephen De'ak, David Popper)

« Last Edit: 15:16:54, 17-08-2007 by Ian Pace » Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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