The Radio 3 Boards Forum from myforum365.com
09:49:14, 03-12-2008 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Whilst we happily welcome all genuine applications to our forum, there may be times when we need to suspend registration temporarily, for example when suffering attacks of spam.
 If you want to join us but find that the temporary suspension has been activated, please try again later.
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 9
  Print  
Author Topic: Barrett in Basel  (Read 6831 times)
Ian Pace
Temporary Restriction
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 4190



« Reply #15 on: 21:10:28, 25-02-2007 »

What do you feel, Richard, about Celan's Zionism (especially in the poem 'Denk Dir', written so as to lend a type of Biblical mythology to the Israeli conquest of Jerusalem in 1967) and how this might accord with the type of mystification of the Holocaust (in the sense of placing it beyond the boundaries of rational explanation) that can be argued to be implicit in his work?

There is an interesting bit of writing about that here: http://barbaricdocument.blogspot.com/2006/03/complicity-of-paul-celan.html
Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
richard barrett
Guest
« Reply #16 on: 21:34:08, 25-02-2007 »

Quote
how much in the whole business depends on receptivity as much as the inherent qualities of the work
Which, obliquely, lends some support to my contention, with regard to music rather than poetry, that listening is (can be, I suppose I should say) as much of a "creative" act as performing and composing. If I didn't think that I wouldn't do the things that I do, for what it's worth.

Ian, I'm not going to get drawn into a discussion of Celan and Zionism, sorry.
Logged
Ian Pace
Temporary Restriction
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 4190



« Reply #17 on: 21:49:51, 25-02-2007 »

Ian, I'm not going to get drawn into a discussion of Celan and Zionism, sorry.

That's your prerogative, of course, but do you mind if ask why? I'm seriously very interested in your thoughts on that, as you have set texts of his that are related to this subject in one way or another.
Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
oliver sudden
Admin/Moderator Group
*****
Posts: 6412



« Reply #18 on: 21:51:49, 25-02-2007 »

Er, Ian, you appear not to have read Richard's post!  Cheesy
Logged
Ian Pace
Temporary Restriction
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 4190



« Reply #19 on: 21:58:50, 25-02-2007 »

Er, Ian, you appear not to have read Richard's post!  Cheesy

I have, I just wondered why he didn't want to discuss it.

Actually, I think that Celan has become too sacred for various contemporary composers and as such, immune to more critical questions, political and otherwise, but I won't go into that now.
Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
richard barrett
Guest
« Reply #20 on: 22:25:39, 25-02-2007 »

I don't want to discuss it PRECISELY because you inevitably come out with stuff like the last line of your previous post, which is of course nonsense, at least in my case, and I shouldn't have to prove that to you. And that is positively my last word on the subject.
Logged
Ian Pace
Temporary Restriction
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 4190



« Reply #21 on: 22:42:02, 25-02-2007 »

I don't want to discuss it PRECISELY because you inevitably come out with stuff like the last line of your previous post, which is of course nonsense, at least in my case, and I shouldn't have to prove that to you. And that is positively my last word on the subject.

I wasn't saying that about you - there are a great many composers who invoke Celan, as you know. And I don't think what I say is nonsense in general. I'm just interested in the changing meaning of Celan and Holocaust-related work, with changing politicisations on the subject.
Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
oliver sudden
Admin/Moderator Group
*****
Posts: 6412



« Reply #22 on: 23:03:25, 25-02-2007 »

OK, I'll just say September 11 before anyone else does.

And also post these:

http://www.elision.org.au/projects/opening/index.html
http://www.garedunord.ch/details.php?id=192
Logged
Bryn
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 3002



« Reply #23 on: 23:09:40, 25-02-2007 »

Oh no! It's not rolled copies of Socialist Worker at dawn again, is it?

 Shocked   Roll Eyes
Logged
aaron cassidy
****
Posts: 499



WWW
« Reply #24 on: 23:34:23, 25-02-2007 »


What's the actual complete performer lineup? 
Logged
George Garnett
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 3855



« Reply #25 on: 23:58:51, 25-02-2007 »

Sometimes I think that one of the (many) reasons for making art is to rid oneself of obsessions, so that they cease to be obsessions..

Now that jumps off the screen and asks to be saved somewhere. It rings a very true-sounding bell to me. I am not saying I have come within a mile of 'making art' but I have occasionally written the odd thing, in the privacy of my own bathroom for my eyes only, for almost exactly that sort of reason. Some idea, or some connection, or some way of looking at something, gets hold of you, takes you over, and  - exactly as Richard says  - gets in the way of doing anything else until it is dealt with. And 'dealing with it' somehow involves exploring it, writing about it, and playing about with it to see whether or not it is as interesting or fruitful as you had a suspicion it might be. And you can't do that properly without making use of it and building it into something external to see whether it can stand up and walk by itself without help. And whether it does or doesn't, that process nonetheless 'gets it dealt with' and out of the way. [Note for future biographers: It should be pointed out in the interests of Mr Garnett's reputation that he had awarded himself several very small glasses of Laphroaig before tapping out the above and it may not reflect his more sober thoughts, if any, on these matters, or indeed bear much relation to what Richard meant or to the real world.]

Rather more importantly, I'm sure I can lay my hands on writings by other composers, poets etc that have said something along the same lines as Richard's comment. I might try and dig some out because it strikes me as all rather interesting.
 
« Last Edit: 00:00:58, 26-02-2007 by George Garnett » Logged
time_is_now
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 4653



« Reply #26 on: 10:57:16, 26-02-2007 »

Quote
Quote from: richard barrett on Yesterday at 20:56:02
Sometimes I think that one of the (many) reasons for making art is to rid oneself of obsessions, so that they cease to be obsessions..
Yes, George (and Richard), this fits very much with my experience too. In fact, I was thinking yesterday that I'm about to make a very big step in my life which I'm really not sure is a good move or not, but (a) I don't think I'll find out until I do it, and more to the point (b) I've got to the stage where I doubt I can 'get over' the idea of doing it except by doing it. Deciding not to no longer seems to be an option.

Sorry, that's nothing to do with creative work, really. As far as writing is concerned, though, I agree: in that context too, I often find that once I've had an idea, deeming it inappropriate and rejecting it completely is not an option. Rather, it's a case of searching for a context in which I can make it work / in which it does seem appropriate. In a way, this is even stranger in my line of work than in Richard's, since on the face of it I'm supposed to be writing about what ought to be definable objects. Should I really be able to 'force' an unrelated idea into seeming relevance?
Logged

The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
George Garnett
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 3855



« Reply #27 on: 11:03:41, 26-02-2007 »

And here's hoping 'Barratt in Basel' went well over the weekend by the way.
Logged
time_is_now
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 4653



« Reply #28 on: 11:36:21, 26-02-2007 »

And here's hoping 'Barrett in Basel' went well over the weekend by the way.
Here's hoping that's the rehearsals you're talking about, George! Otherwise I've booked my ticket for the wrong date  Huh
Logged

The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
George Garnett
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 3855



« Reply #29 on: 13:11:25, 26-02-2007 »

Ah, er, oh, um, I see..... Well, yes, I obviously meant the rehearsals. I thought that went without saying. Cough.  Embarrassed  I hope they went well anyway Smiley.

Just going back to Richard's earlier comment again, I haven't yet had time to dig out related comments from other composers etc but here's a quote from the poet Randall Jarrell that is in the same sort of territory:

"A poem is, so to speak, a way of making you forget how you wrote it."
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 9
  Print  
 
Jump to: