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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #15 on: 11:58:42, 15-05-2007 » |
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Good grief - the post makes very clear that I was saying that such a group does not exist in that form, it is just a patronising fantasy. And, in case you're about to bring it up, ideals of valiant sons of toil are equally a fantasy. This is about individuals' relationship to the means of production, not about character traits. And this is the problem with the hate you peddle, Pace. It's based upon made-up drivel of your own devising. You wrote the term "the sense of an undifferentiated group of philistine, stupid people", because it sounds good in the deluded pages of "Class War" and other newspapers flogged outside Tooting Common tube station. Patronising it most certainly is, Pace - patronising to me, because it's the utter dross you wrote to feed the hatred that keeps you going. >> And, in case you're about to bring it up << Yes, here we go again, the KGB Torturer-In-Chief is in full flow now... inventing charges to justify the blows he's about to inflict. "And in case you're about to bring it up..."... probably they were among the last words Meyerhold heard before he lost consciousness at the hands of your chums. >> ideals of valiant sons of toil are equally a fantasy << You said it, chum, not me - so don't ram THAT down my throat too. Yes, the Stalinist Terror was truly hideous in all respects - but what has that directly got to do with the issues being debated here? Because it was run by people like you, using the same methodology in every respect. You represent the cultural legacy of Lavrenti Beria. I can just picture you sitting there at XERXES, jotting down the seat-numbers of all those who were enjoying the performance - so you could go to the Box-Office later with your thugs and obtain the names and addresses. |
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
- Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #16 on: 12:05:54, 15-05-2007 » |
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Very well. I'm not sending in a formal complaint, but will draw attention to the following here: And this is the problem with the hate you peddle, Pace. It's based upon made-up drivel of your own devising.
it's the utter dross you wrote to feed the hatred that keeps you going.
Yes, here we go again, the KGB Torturer-In-Chief is in full flow now... inventing charges to justify the blows he's about to inflict.
Because it [the Stalinist Terror] was run by people like you, using the same methodology in every respect. You represent the cultural legacy of Lavrenti Beria.
I can just picture you sitting there at XERXES, jotting down the seat-numbers of all those who were enjoying the performance - so you could go to the Box-Office later with your thugs and obtain the names and addresses.
Then also draw attention to the following from the Board Rules ( http://r3ok.myforum365.com/index.php?topic=936.0 ) 2. No direct attacks/stalking posts will be acceptable on the forum. |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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John W
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« Reply #17 on: 12:07:08, 15-05-2007 » |
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The "bourgeousie" does not exist, other than as a concept for those who look down on them. Those who own sufficient capital that they are not forced to sell their labour to survive, don't exist? Oh come on Ian, that definition would make ME "bourgeousie". I don't have to work to survive but that's because I took early retirement and have enough pension to live on, oh and my wife still works  . I do have a small business, though, because I was getting bored  Seems to me Ian you just have an extremist chip on your shoulder. I earned my pension through 30 years of working, I own my house and garden and luxury car because I paid for them. I will give my property to my kids because I want to. Any problem with that? John W |
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #18 on: 12:11:06, 15-05-2007 » |
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The "bourgeousie" does not exist, other than as a concept for those who look down on them. Those who own sufficient capital that they are not forced to sell their labour to survive, don't exist? Oh come on Ian, that definition would make ME "bourgeousie". I don't have to work to survive but that's because I took early retirement and have enough pension to live on, oh and my wife still works . I do have a small business, though, because I was getting bored Seems to me Ian you just have an extremist chip on your shoulder. I earned my pension through 30 years of working, I own my house and garden and luxury car because I paid for them. I will give my property to my kids because I want to. Any problem with that? No, of course no problem with that. Both pensioners and children, as they do not form a part of the potential workforce (except in certain circumstances, for example involving the use of child labour) come into a different category. One of the partial achievements of social democracy is to, for the most part, obviate the need for either group to have to sell their labour power, at least in some parts of the world. |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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burning dog
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« Reply #19 on: 12:15:30, 15-05-2007 » |
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The "bourgeousie" does not exist, other than as a concept for those who look down on them. Those who own sufficient capital that they are not forced to sell their labour to survive, don't exist? Oh come on Ian, that definition would make ME "bourgeousie". I don't have to work to survive but that's because I took early retirement and have enough pension to live on, oh and my wife still works . I do have a small business, though, because I was getting bored Seems to me Ian you just have an extremist chip on your shoulder. I earned my pension through 30 years of working, I own my house and garden and luxury car because I paid for them. I will give my property to my kids because I want to. Any problem with that? John W I se it as just the opposite John. How did you afford your early retirement? By hard worh right? And your children will get most of their wealth by the same route I reckon. Socialists in general put more people in to the proloetrariat/working class than society at large does. The government reckons we are middle class if we work in an office(class C1)  |
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John W
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« Reply #20 on: 12:22:36, 15-05-2007 » |
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your children will get most of their wealth by the same route I reckon. They will get some of their 'wealth' from my property, but I'm not a millionaire, they will need to work so yes that is where their 'wealth' will come by. John W |
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John W
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« Reply #21 on: 12:25:54, 15-05-2007 » |
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No, of course no problem with that. Both pensioners and children, as they do not form a part of the potential workforce
Eh, excuse me Ian, I am not a pensioner, I have enough to live on. I am part of your so-called 'potential workforce' but I do not want to 'work'. Problem with that? John W |
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time_is_now
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« Reply #22 on: 12:26:52, 15-05-2007 » |
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Seems to me Ian you just have an extremist chip on your shoulder. I earned my pension through 30 years of working, I own my house and garden and luxury car because I paid for them. I will give my property to my kids because I want to. Any problem with that? Unless I'm missing something, Ian didn't say there was anything wrong with that, even if he did seem to be defining it as 'bourgeoisie'. As I said in the Eurovision bit before the thread transferred here, the idea that insults are being traded seems to be in the mind of people other than Ian - all he looked to me to be doing (and I haven't spoken to him about this) was defining a few terms in an economic sense. You may disagree with his analysis/definitions, but I really don't see that he's even implicitly had a go at anyone here for being 'bourgeois'. |
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #23 on: 12:38:22, 15-05-2007 » |
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No, of course no problem with that. Both pensioners and children, as they do not form a part of the potential workforce
Eh, excuse me Ian, I am not a pensioner, I have enough to live on. I am part of your so-called 'potential workforce' but I do not want to 'work'. Sorry, I thought from your earlier statement you meant that you were a pensioner. Apologies. But as blackdog says, it's because of putting in that work that you are in that situation. |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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John W
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« Reply #24 on: 12:47:40, 15-05-2007 » |
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Sorry, I thought from your earlier statement you meant that you were a pensioner. Apologies. But as blackdog says, it's because of putting in that work that you are in that situation.
Phew, so come the Brown revolution I won't lose my hard-earned wealth. Incidently my pension is taxed so I'm still paying my way, and we still pay for prescriptions.  It's interesting that a pianist wishes to define me, why do you want to do that Ian? Just let me live my law-abiding life please  John W |
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #25 on: 12:51:04, 15-05-2007 » |
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It's interesting that a pianist wishes to define me, why do you want to do that Ian? I don't have any particular wish to do so, and certainly had no intention of bringing anyone in the forum personally into it! |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #26 on: 12:54:05, 15-05-2007 » |
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Seems to me Ian you just have an extremist chip on your shoulder. I earned my pension through 30 years of working, I own my house and garden and luxury car because I paid for them. I will give my property to my kids because I want to. Any problem with that? Unless I'm missing something, Ian didn't say there was anything wrong with that, even if he did seem to be defining it as 'bourgeoisie'. As I said in the Eurovision bit before the thread transferred here, the idea that insults are being traded seems to be in the mind of people other than Ian - all he looked to me to be doing (and I haven't spoken to him about this) was defining a few terms in an economic sense. You may disagree with his analysis/definitions, but I really don't see that he's even implicitly had a go at anyone here for being 'bourgeois'. That is absolutely true. In the case of Eurovision, I was indeed drawing some attention to some unscrupulous practices on the part of those who fund the context (just in response to a related query from Alistair), but those are specific cases, not attacks on individuals simply for being 'bourgeois'. |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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Tony Watson
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« Reply #27 on: 12:59:52, 15-05-2007 » |
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Labels and definitions notwithstanding, John W, I don't see how you can object to someone calling you a pensioner when you receive a pension. If it's because the name implies an old person, then we should use the term all the more to stop it being so.
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burning dog
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« Reply #28 on: 13:31:13, 15-05-2007 » |
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I suppose the term is slightly outdated when a lot of workers own property, but it seems a more sensible descrpition of of the non aristocratic wealthy and powerful than "upper middle class" or any of the other British terms (which people use all the time wheter we like it or not), or the descriptions attached to the classifications A,B,C1,C2,D&E.
I think it would take a good deal of money to qualify as bourgeois these day when a house for a working family costs £250,000 in many cities.
Most people are working class IMO!
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John W
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« Reply #29 on: 13:40:06, 15-05-2007 » |
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Tony, I do object to being called a pensioner because that term is usualy associated with someone who collects state pension, and I am a long way from that 'category'.   Just think, during the rest of my life I will pay more in tax (on my current pension) than I'll ever receive in state pension. Ian, I will give my property to my kids because I want to. Any problem with that?
I didn't get an answer to that question John W |
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« Last Edit: 13:41:47, 15-05-2007 by John W »
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