Ian Pace
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« Reply #240 on: 12:23:47, 12-08-2007 » |
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Here is another article and a range of comments: http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/gordon_lynch/2007/08/atheism_the_new_zealotry.htmlBy the way, I don't think this critique of Dawkins has yet been referenced in this thread. Interested in anyone's thoughts on it. His comment 'For my claim to love you to be coherent, I must be able to explain what it is about you that justifies it; but my bank manager might agree with my dewy-eyed description of you without being in love with you himself' could be applied to musical appreciation as well.
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« Last Edit: 12:40:10, 12-08-2007 by Ian Pace »
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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Milly Jones
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« Reply #241 on: 13:06:12, 12-08-2007 » |
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Here is another article and a range of comments: http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/gordon_lynch/2007/08/atheism_the_new_zealotry.htmlBy the way, I don't think this critique of Dawkins has yet been referenced in this thread. Interested in anyone's thoughts on it. His comment 'For my claim to love you to be coherent, I must be able to explain what it is about you that justifies it; but my bank manager might agree with my dewy-eyed description of you without being in love with you himself' could be applied to musical appreciation as well. Ha! Didn't I liken Dawkins to Ian Paisley myself on this very thread? This is a very thoughtful article and frankly I agree with it so much I could have written it myself. For the most part he's taken the words right out of my mouth and I've bookmarked it to forward to all my friends, atheist, agnostic and religious for more discussion. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.
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We pass this way but once. This is not a rehearsal!
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richard barrett
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« Reply #243 on: 13:38:46, 12-08-2007 » |
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I'd had a look at that article before, Milly. As you might know, Fred Hoyle was a maverick kind of scientist who pursued theories which were often at variance with those of the scientific community at large. Some of his work (eg. on the evolution of stars) has been upheld by subsequent observation and experiment, while other aspects (eg. the "steady-state" theory of the universe) has been falsified by the same process (good examples both of how the development of scientific ideas works). Hoyle and Wickramasinghe's "panspermia" theory isn't really supported by any hard evidence, but then neither is any other theory on the origin of life on Earth. The H&W theory has always seemed to me contrived and unlikely, but it does sem likely to me that we shall probably know one way or another before very long, especially with upcoming missions to Mars and other parts of the solar system.
Returning to Dawkins for a moment, I don't generally like his writing that much but I'd recommend his recent-ish The Ancestor's Tale as a fine example of the beauty and explanatory power of evolutionary theory. If he only wrote books like that, his thinking would be a lot more convincing to a lot more people.
And returning to Derren Brown for a shorter moment, I don't know that much about him but I don't think he claims that what he does (if he really does it) is in any way connected to paranormal abilities, right?
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« Last Edit: 13:42:25, 12-08-2007 by richard barrett »
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Milly Jones
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« Reply #244 on: 13:48:45, 12-08-2007 » |
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I have the Ancestor's Tale and I've ploughed my way through it as with all his other books. Unfortunately with Dawkins I find that if you've read one you've read them all. Totally predictable, verbose and dogmatic. I've never heard of Derren Brown....I shall have to google him.
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We pass this way but once. This is not a rehearsal!
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richard barrett
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« Reply #245 on: 14:02:00, 12-08-2007 » |
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I have the Ancestor's Tale and I've ploughed my way through it as with all his other books. Unfortunately with Dawkins I find that if you've read one you've read them all. Totally predictable, verbose and dogmatic. I think you and I must be viewing it from opposite directions! To me it's packed full of fascinating facts, anecdotes and speculations about life and its development, and dwells hardly at all on theory. The things that irritate me about Dawkins' books are the long-winded justifications, ultimately aimed at creationists and advocates of "intelligent design". I'm at least as convinced about evolution as I am about any scientific theory (with the proviso that if it were disproved tomorrow I'd have to abandon it again!). David Deutsch (qv) has the interesting idea that the mechanism of natural selection is a fundamental principle not just of the evolution of life but of physical reality as a whole. (I think you'd find his Fabric of Reality interesting too - knowing a bit about your interests from what you post here, I think I can guarantee that you'd find reading it a vastly thought-provoking experience, and I'm sure George will back me up on this.) I've never heard of Derren Brown....I shall have to google him. I don't think he's as important a scientist as Dawkins
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Milly Jones
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« Reply #246 on: 14:47:56, 12-08-2007 » |
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Thank you "Fabric of Reality" is now on my shopping list. I've just visited Derren Brown's website . Omigod!!!!!
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We pass this way but once. This is not a rehearsal!
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Chafing Dish
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« Reply #247 on: 15:01:38, 12-08-2007 » |
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(as A & H put it) 'Der Mythos geht in die Aufklärung über und die Natur in bloße Objektivität'. I think it's unfair to assume that everyone here speaks German. In English that would be: 'Myth takes the form of enlightenment, and nature that of mere objectivity.' I'm still pondering this sentence.... the verb übergehen has turned into "to take the form of," which has none of the sense of transition or assumption. It's almost better, though infinitely more awkward , to say that "enlightenment has taken over the role of mythos, and mere objectivity the role of nature." Improvements welcome! Or just leave it as it was...
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Kittybriton
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« Reply #248 on: 15:05:04, 12-08-2007 » |
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Those Darren Brown entertainments might be harmless enough. More importantlly, instead of condemning the young for drinking too much and the lower paid for eating too much fattening food, it would be worthwhile looking into why they do it. Because they can? Because they're just greedy? In some cases maybe, but I think there's a fair amount of "comfort" consumption going on.
Speaking from experience, as somebody on a (very) low income, most of the food that I can afford is more fattening, particularly if I let the sedentary lifestyle take hold.
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Click me -> About meor me -> my handmade storeNo, I'm not a complete idiot. I'm only a halfwit. In fact I'm actually a catfish.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #249 on: 15:11:46, 12-08-2007 » |
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(as A & H put it) 'Der Mythos geht in die Aufklärung über und die Natur in bloße Objektivität'. I think it's unfair to assume that everyone here speaks German. In English that would be: 'Myth takes the form of enlightenment, and nature that of mere objectivity.' I'm still pondering this sentence.... the verb übergehen has turned into "to take the form of," which has none of the sense of transition or assumption. It's almost better, though infinitely more awkward , to say that "enlightenment has taken over the role of mythos, and mere objectivity the role of nature." For both you and qt, as native German speakers: would you say that übergehen, when used in this context, has a relatively precise meaning, just one that it is difficult to render satisfactorily in English, or is it ambiguous (or at least polysemous) in German as well?
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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IgnorantRockFan
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« Reply #250 on: 16:21:53, 12-08-2007 » |
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And returning to Derren Brown for a shorter moment, I don't know that much about him but I don't think he claims that what he does (if he really does it) is in any way connected to paranormal abilities, right?
He uses observation and psychological manipulation. He's never claimed to have paranormal abilities. In fact, he's gone so far as using his skills to debunk so-called supernatural phenomena (much the same as Houdini did). I think he's extremely clever, often very entertaining, and to be perfectly honest he terrifies me! If I met Derren Brown in the street I would block my ears and run the toher way
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Allegro, ma non tanto
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IgnorantRockFan
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« Reply #251 on: 16:28:52, 12-08-2007 » |
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Large parts of his Road to Reality sail right over my head (and I do know a bit about maths and physics) but I'm still glad they're there. Same for me. I breezed through the first part of the book and then hit maths so far in advance of my abilities that I completely stalled. But I eventually picked it up again and persevered, and it is possible to slide past the equations and still get a feel of the concepts he's describing. Probably the most difficult text book I've ever read but ultimately very rewarding.
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Allegro, ma non tanto
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Chafing Dish
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« Reply #252 on: 16:29:12, 12-08-2007 » |
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It has many meanings, but here I think it means "to undergo a transition or a transfer of roles" -- and I think it's pretty precise and unambiguous, but one must know the context. Do I get hazed for not having read Kritik der Aufklärung?
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richard barrett
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« Reply #253 on: 16:36:27, 12-08-2007 » |
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If I met Derren Brown in the street I would block my ears and run the toher way I was thinking that too. I wonder what kind of social life he has.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #254 on: 16:57:15, 12-08-2007 » |
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It has many meanings, but here I think it means "to undergo a transition or a transfer of roles" -- and I think it's pretty precise and unambiguous, but one must know the context. Do I get hazed for not having read Kritik der Aufklärung? No you don't, but you might do for getting the title of Dialektik der Aufklärung wrong!
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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