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Author Topic: BBC radio boss is leaving  (Read 661 times)
time_is_now
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« Reply #15 on: 16:01:56, 11-04-2008 »

I find it very interesting that Brian Redhead, a Tory, felt it necessary to pretend to be a leftist in order to get anywhere in BBC radio.
It is interesting. A Marxist wouldn't pretend to be a Tory to get anywhere.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
Swan_Knight
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« Reply #16 on: 16:03:24, 11-04-2008 »

From my perspective

From my perspective your comments on feminists would seem to contravene some Board rules there.


Richard, please read the referrred-to sentence again: I'm talking about my own experience, not anyone else's.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #17 on: 16:07:38, 11-04-2008 »

Richard, please read the referrred-to sentence again: I'm talking about my own experience, not anyone else's.

Frankly I would say that a description of any group of people whatsoever as "appalling, hobbled, twisted creatures" firstly gives an impression of entirely personal vitriol and compulsion to insult (rather than any kind of rational attitude towards other people's views), which surely has no place here, and secondly makes your entire post read like the rantings of a pompous oaf, whether that is actually the case or not.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #18 on: 16:09:26, 11-04-2008 »

To describe oneself as a socialist/Marxist/feminist in this day and age may not quite be tantamount to saying the earth is flat, but it's equivalent to saying 'I'm yesterday's person'.
I'd consider it a mark of honour to be described as any of those three, even if I inevitably have certain reservations about some of the beliefs commonly associated with those positions (but then we all have our individual points of dissension with whatever party line we choose to take).

I certainly don't think socialism looks like 'yesterday's thing' from the perspective of Latin America, where some of the world's most heartwarming social and political developments seem to take place these days. Having said that, they're not alone: Spain has just returned a socialist party to power with a secure majority, Greece and several other European countries have prominent socialist parties, and indeed the socialist alliance has the second-largest number of MEPs of any grouping in the European Parliament (not that I expect that means much to you).

Anyway, you replied to my initial comment by saying that a 'pseudo-Marxist' would be a bad thing from either side's perspective, which seemed to me a not unreasonable comment. But I was interested to see how long it would take you to drop the 'pseudo-' prefix: not long at all, I now see!
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
Jonathan
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« Reply #19 on: 16:12:15, 11-04-2008 »

Perhaps the term "fence sitter" would be a better description of her (he said, avoiding any contentious language)?
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Swan_Knight
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« Reply #20 on: 16:17:07, 11-04-2008 »

Richard, please read the referrred-to sentence again: I'm talking about my own experience, not anyone else's.

Frankly I would say that a description of any group of people whatsoever as "appalling, hobbled, twisted creatures" firstly gives an impression of entirely personal vitriol and compulsion to insult (rather than any kind of rational attitude towards other people's views), which surely has no place here, and secondly makes your entire post read like the rantings of a pompous oaf, whether that is actually the case or not.


'Pompous' certainly, 'oaf' only at times (I hope).  But I recognise when I've trodden on a corn, so I won't aggravate the situation.
 I hope you'll try to understand, if not to sympathise, with my postion, Richard: if someone describes themselves as 'a feminist' to me, I tend to react the same way as I would to someone who described themselves as 'a racist.'  To my mind, both look at the world through a  distorted lens. 
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #21 on: 16:22:43, 11-04-2008 »

I have known a few women thinkers who would describe themselves as feminists and perfectly sane human beings I have found them.

Those that I find scary are those who give me a horrible suspicion they may be right.
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Morticia
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« Reply #22 on: 16:34:01, 11-04-2008 »

I will say only a few words here. I find it strange that in the last, say 10 or so years, the word 'feminist' appears to have acquired a derogatory meaning. How one can equate it with the word 'racist' is, frankly, beyond my comprehension.
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Swan_Knight
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« Reply #23 on: 16:48:37, 11-04-2008 »

I will say only a few words here. I find it strange that in the last, say 10 or so years, the word 'feminist' appears to have acquired a derogatory meaning. How one can equate it with the word 'racist' is, frankly, beyond my comprehension.

I believe that certain prominent feminists are largely responsible for this state of affairs - most notably, the American crackpot Valerie Solanas, who produced the following from her crackerbox of crackers:


'The male chromosome is an incomplete female chromosome: in other words, the male is a walking abortion, aborted at the gene stage. To be male is to be deficient: emotionally limited.  Maleness is a deficiency disease and males are emotional cripples.'


To my mind, that's pseudo-scientific racism: of the kind that was respectable in the early years of the twentieth century.

Add to that, the addled outpourings of the likes of Germaine Greer and Camille Paglia, the insistence that men are 'by default' oppressors, and their tendency to group themselves into little self-satisfied huddles and it's no surprise that feminism has acquired a derogatory meaning.

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time_is_now
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« Reply #24 on: 16:58:50, 11-04-2008 »

Well, that quotation's a lot of rubbish, but I suppose even the most honourable movements attract their crackpots (just look at the Tory Party Wink). I don't think you should judge feminism by it, and I think "feminism has acquired a derogatory meaning" perhaps needs re-phrasing as "there are certain statements by which feminism could be painted as unreasonable but we should probably try hard not to do so since the only result of doing so is likely to be further oppression and inequality".

Unless you have a non-feminist way of ensuring equality for women in mind, that is ...

What you describe as Germaine Greer's 'outpourings' have never struck me as particularly 'addled', but maybe she's trodden on a few of your corns (to adopt another of your charming locutions)?
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
Don Basilio
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« Reply #25 on: 17:09:59, 11-04-2008 »

As I am a male I can never be a feminist.  I can well imagine the sort of liberal straight man saying "O I'm a feminist" with his cleaning lady, the lollipop lady at his children's school, his mother, wife, mistress and therapist all having difficulty keeping a straight face.  That is the sort of  patronising bloke for which I could sympatise with sk's scorn (although not with his passion.)

But women do say they experience being regarded as inferior merely on account of their gender.  That may sometimes  be paranoia, but there seems good evidence to show it has often  been the case.  Old fashioned courtesy and manners would suggest bearing that position in mind in your talk.
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Swan_Knight
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« Reply #26 on: 17:11:05, 11-04-2008 »

Didn't you read Greer's piece on 'football as art' a few weeks back (Reiner had a thread about it)?  The piece was pure drivel.   
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Morticia
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« Reply #27 on: 17:13:06, 11-04-2008 »

I will say only a few words here. I find it strange that in the last, say 10 or so years, the word 'feminist' appears to have acquired a derogatory meaning. How one can equate it with the word 'racist' is, frankly, beyond my comprehension.

I believe that certain prominent feminists are largely responsible for this state of affairs - most notably, the American crackpot Valerie Solanas, who produced the following from her crackerbox of crackers:


'The male chromosome is an incomplete female chromosome: in other words, the male is a walking abortion, aborted at the gene stage. To be male is to be deficient: emotionally limited.  Maleness is a deficiency disease and males are emotional cripples.'


To my mind, that's pseudo-scientific racism: of the kind that was respectable in the early years of the twentieth century.

Add to that, the addled outpourings of the likes of Germaine Greer and Camille Paglia, the insistence that men are 'by default' oppressors, and their tendency to group themselves into little self-satisfied huddles and it's no surprise that feminism has acquired a derogatory meaning.



You quote two examples of 'prominent feminists' there, with the implication that all females who might describe themselves as feminists would subscribe to those views. This is not necessarily the case. Many feminists would disagree with this 'black and white' thinking that you choose to quote. Have you met any feminists in 'real life', SK? You may find them to be somewhat different.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #28 on: 17:15:44, 11-04-2008 »

Didn't you read Greer's piece on 'football as art' a few weeks back (Reiner had a thread about it)?  The piece was pure drivel.   
I thought it had nuggets of common sense, plus a few sweeping generalisations that would hardly be expected to help her cause on a messageboard full of classical music-lovers. It only seemed as out of place as it did because people are not used to reading strong opinions from feisty women, and still don't like to do so on the whole. If a man had written it people would have been much more sympathetic.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
Don Basilio
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« Reply #29 on: 17:18:05, 11-04-2008 »

Are you addressing me or tinners, SK?

Greer is certainly a one off.  There was certainly some nuggets among the dross there.  Her contempt for Margaret Hodge ought to gain her some sympathy here.

OK, you can say she is very 70s.  St Paul is very 1st century and Julian of Norwich is very 14th century, but I have never been one for what C S Lewis calls chronological snobbery.  Just because something is not contemporary, doesn't mean it may not be more telling for us than a contemporary thinker.

Now, that is trendy rubbish, sk.

PS written before I saw tinners had used the word "nuggets".
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
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