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Author Topic: Nicholas Hytner: "Schools to blame for generation unable to understand Arts"  (Read 428 times)
Reiner Torheit
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« on: 05:19:58, 14-04-2008 »

(Daily Telegraph)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2008/04/13/btarts113.xml

Nicholas Hytner said the failure to provide children with an adequate education in music and drama was a scandal whose effects were being felt throughout the arts community.  He said it could take 20 years to put right, adding that arts organisations should not "dumb down" their productions to attract wider audiences.

[The full interview with Hytner referred to in the above article can be found here:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2008/04/14/sv_artslist1.xml ]
« Last Edit: 05:24:48, 14-04-2008 by Reiner Torheit » Logged

"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
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Swan_Knight
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« Reply #1 on: 05:51:33, 14-04-2008 »

Substitute 'governments' for 'schools' and I'd probably agree.
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perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #2 on: 13:20:38, 14-04-2008 »

Not really schools, and not teachers.  Hytner misses the target ever so slightly, in a way that fails to nail the real culprits.

He's right that many of the problems are connected with schools, but the real problem is finding time in the syllabus and the resources to use that time, and here the question is one of priorities set by others. 

Some examples:

The GCSE music syllabus is ludicrously easy, and offers no challenge or incentive to excellence.  I really don't want to turn into one of those who goes on about the dumbing-down of exams, but GCSE music has to be the exception.  The demans it makes are so low that, hereabouts, sixth-form colleges don't recognise it as an entry qualification for A-level music; they want Grade 5 theory as a minimum, plus Grade 5 on an instrument preferred, both of which go way beyond the GCSE requirement.  Anyone who can use Sibelius or strum a few chords on a guitar will pass the performance requirement.  The only challenge that is provided in secondary schools appears to be where a dedicated teacher is prepared to organise extra-curricular ensembles. 

(Incidentally, I know much less about GCSE Drama but I did once ask one of my daughter's friends what sort of voice training they did.  Answer: none, they have throat mikes these days .... ). 

The local music service here runs a "Vocal Techniques" class for young singers, and the results are little short of scandalous.  I have heard the class perform in a smallish school hall where they are miked Shocked) and it is obvious that they have not been taught to stand, breathe or support - simply to croon breathily into a microphone.  Again, no challenge or discipline or recognition that to achieve something worthwhile demands effort.  It contrasts powerfully with the approach and resources devoted to school sport, but then I suppose that is what politicians care about.

Nothing is done to support children whose parents cannot afford instruments or tuition.  Forget the scandal of the selling-off of school playing fields; peripatetic music services and instrumental provision have been decimated.  Thirty years on, the ethos and funding of, say, the Leicestershire Schools Symphony Orchestra looks like the purest fantasy. 

Most of all, schools and teachers are not equipped to counteract the prevailing culture, in which commercial interests bombard children with content-free stimulus - in particular through TV but other media as well - in which children move from one garish image and loud noise to another.  It's exhausting and seems to me to undermine children's ability to concentrate, to relax, to focus on anything other than the moment.  Add to that the poisonous culture of "cool", in which enthusiasm and achievement are held up to ridicule and playground bullying, and you have a tide of intellectual and emotional sewage that teachers and schools cannot, by themselves, hold back.  What price reflectiveness and seriousness in this environment?

All these problems seem to me to manifest themselves in schools, but the fault seems to me to lie elsewhere.  Don't blame the schools; the root problems are elsewhere.
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At every one of these [classical] concerts in England you will find rows of weary people who are there, not because they really like classical music, but because they think they ought to like it. (Shaw, Don Juan in Hell)
Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #3 on: 14:16:50, 14-04-2008 »

they want Grade 5 theory as a minimum, plus Grade 5 on an instrument preferred, both of which go way beyond the GCSE requirement..... 

....Anyone who can use Sibelius or strum a few chords on a guitar will pass the performance requirement.   

How things have changed Sad  When I did O-level music (far less the A-level I did later) you had to produce a Grade VI performance certificate even to be entered.   This concealed the nested requirement that to take any performance exam above Grade V, you needed a pass at Grade V Theory...  so effectively you had to have both.

I still remember taking Grade V Theory - the examination centre was (coincidentally) the former Royal College Of Organists adjacent to the RAH.  I twitched nervously going past the building on the way to concerts for several years later.  Writing-out ornaments in full - including trills starting on the lower note, and other abominations - seemed to account for a lot of the test Sad

But a wider point arises, PW...  do you think that an awareness and love of the arts should be confined only to those who pursue them to A-level?   My knowledge and ability in the graphic arts doesn't extend beyond stick-men.  Dance was a symptom of sexual perversion.  Theatre wasn't taught at all - I blundered into all kinds of after-school stuff without the slightest hint as to how to act the roles...  I think you got roles on the basis of turning-up for rehearsals.

Isn't Hytner saying that appreciation of the Arts should be a cross-curriculum thing?
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #4 on: 14:35:55, 14-04-2008 »

But a wider point arises, PW...  do you think that an awareness and love of the arts should be confined only to those who pursue them to A-level?   My knowledge and ability in the graphic arts doesn't extend beyond stick-men.  Dance was a symptom of sexual perversion.  Theatre wasn't taught at all - I blundered into all kinds of after-school stuff without the slightest hint as to how to act the roles...  I think you got roles on the basis of turning-up for rehearsals.

Isn't Hytner saying that appreciation of the Arts should be a cross-curriculum thing?

I think that awareness and love of the arts should be as wide as possible and should be encouraged at all ages, starting as early as possible.  I guess I was conflating performance and appreciation, although I guess that the former can go a long way towards encouraging the latter.  I think what I really object to is the idea that a qualification can give the appearance of accomplishment while denying the reality, and that the curriculum should fail to extend and expand students' consciousness.

But, yes, there should be time and space and resource for appreciation across the curriculum.  If only music got a fraction of the time and effort devoted to sport ...

I'm certainly not going to defend the good old days.    At my public school in the 1970s I fetched up taking brass sectionals for the school orchestra - not because I was the best brass player (which I wasn't by some distance) or most accomplished musician but because I was a senior prefect and because it would have been corrosive to the character for more junior boys to direct those above them in the pecking order ... Sad
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At every one of these [classical] concerts in England you will find rows of weary people who are there, not because they really like classical music, but because they think they ought to like it. (Shaw, Don Juan in Hell)
Peter Grimes
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« Reply #5 on: 15:57:59, 14-04-2008 »

The Daily Telegraph reckons Hytner is the most powerful person in British culture:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2008/04/14/sv_artslist1.xml
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #6 on: 23:45:22, 15-04-2008 »

I wonder if this

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/04/14/DDM310469E.DTL&feed=rss.entertainment

is the kind of thing Hytner has in mind?
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
MT Wessel
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« Reply #7 on: 00:58:45, 16-04-2008 »

The Daily Telegraph reckons Hytner is the most powerful person in British culture ...
The Daily Wessel 16.04.2008
stop press (for gawd's sake)
Daily Telegraph to blame for misunderstanding Nicholas Hytner
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #8 on: 20:26:19, 16-04-2008 »

meanwhile...

http://www.thestage.co.uk/news/newsstory.php/20425/drama-classes-hit-by-60-teacher-cut
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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« Reply #9 on: 22:19:00, 16-04-2008 »

I'm certainly not going to defend the good old days.    At my public school in the 1970s I fetched up taking brass sectionals for the school orchestra - not because I was the best brass player (which I wasn't by some distance) or most accomplished musician but because I was a senior prefect and because it would have been corrosive to the character for more junior boys to direct those above them in the pecking order ... Sad

PW,

I hear something similar from my friends in the army.  Imagine playing in a clarinet section where the leader was ranked inferior to (more than) one of the back row, so couldn't impose musical discipline on the section (walking up and down discipline being another matter!).  Now imagine you are playing in the band of the ******************* guards...

NB
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martle
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« Reply #10 on: 22:46:02, 16-04-2008 »

The GCSE music syllabus is ludicrously easy, and offers no challenge or incentive to excellence.  I really don't want to turn into one of those who goes on about the dumbing-down of exams, but GCSE music has to be the exception. 

And, as I'm certain we've discussed before, the knock-on effects are crucial. Please let nobody believe that, in terms of musical literacy, performance and creative discipline and technique, A-levels do not similarly suffer, whatever HMG or anyone else says. The proliferation of A-level syllabuses is merely a symptom of the diffusion of 'skills' embedded at GCSE-level.

And then we see the consequences at university level. Smart, able and intellectually mature kids with an 'A' grade at A-level can often barely read music; but if that wasn't cause enough for concern (as it isn't in the minds of some, and I partially understand that), neither can they think critically, analyse, make comparative judgements or demonstrate any kind of comparative musical knowledge. So, we have either to go with that (and lose or ignore what we only recently considered to be core musical values and skills) or backtrack furiously and insert massive amounts of remedial work into the HE curriculum in order to redress the balance. Which, obviously, takes time away from stuff we 'should' be doing etc. etc.

Anytime now, Ian will probably be along to say 'so what?' - and that the time is fast disappearing (if not long gone) when we should be privileging the musical values that we traditionally have in education, and that the musical world just isn't like that any more and is incapable any longer of sustaining this. And perhaps he'd be right. But in any case we may as well face the fact that the kinds of priorities and values that I suspect most of us experinced in our musical education have long since been buried by other types of cultural concerns.
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #11 on: 23:31:22, 16-04-2008 »

Quote
But in any case we may as well face the fact that the kinds of priorities and values that I suspect most of us experinced in our musical education have long since been buried by other types of cultural concerns.

Do you believe blame lies entirely in the School system?  It's a happy cliche to say "Well, I blame the guvverment, me!", but are they wholly to blame?   Surely kids who WANT to go on to tertiary level to do Music (it would be interesting to ask them WHY they want to?) would want to have a full armoury of skills and abilities at their disposal?   I can't say I ever really "enjoyed" Harmony, Theory & Counterpoint, but I think I realised that - like cod-liver oil - it was probably beneficial.  Even today, when in principal I don't have any responsibility for that side of things, the ability to transpose an Eb clarinet part, or write down a realised harpsichord part (did that just yesterday) from a figured bass is very handy.

Is the age of quick fixes and easy solutions meaning no-one bothers with that old crap any longer, or sees its value?  Does Finale and a laptop do it all these days?   My secondary school music teacher knew Albrechtsburger in person and had a red pen that could find parallel fifths at 50 paces - does anyone care now?  Are we right, or are we the old fogeys in tweedy jackets with leather elbow-patches, still using log-tables and slide-rules when a pocket calculator costs £1.99 in Tesco?   Why did we learn to score-read at the piano from soprano, alto, tenor and bass clefs?  (And I do mean soprano, not treble).  What repertoire actually exists in that format anyhow?  (I could never find any to practice from, I had to write it out that way from my keyboard copy of the Bach Chorales).  I mean who actually uses the tenor clef, apart from advanced cellists?   
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
richard barrett
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« Reply #12 on: 23:44:58, 16-04-2008 »

I mean who actually uses the tenor clef, apart from advanced cellists?   
Trombonists, quite often.
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« Reply #13 on: 00:03:20, 17-04-2008 »

Quote
But in any case we may as well face the fact that the kinds of priorities and values that I suspect most of us experinced in our musical education have long since been buried by other types of cultural concerns.

Do you believe blame lies entirely in the School system?  It's a happy cliche to say "Well, I blame the guvverment, me!", but are they wholly to blame?   Surely kids who WANT to go on to tertiary level to do Music (it would be interesting to ask them WHY they want to?) would want to have a full armoury of skills and abilities at their disposal?   I can't say I ever really "enjoyed" Harmony, Theory & Counterpoint, but I think I realised that - like cod-liver oil - it was probably beneficial.  Even today, when in principal I don't have any responsibility for that side of things, the ability to transpose an Eb clarinet part, or write down a realised harpsichord part (did that just yesterday) from a figured bass is very handy.

Is the age of quick fixes and easy solutions meaning no-one bothers with that old crap any longer, or sees its value?  Does Finale and a laptop do it all these days?   My secondary school music teacher knew Albrechtsburger in person and had a red pen that could find parallel fifths at 50 paces - does anyone care now?  Are we right, or are we the old fogeys in tweedy jackets with leather elbow-patches, still using log-tables and slide-rules when a pocket calculator costs £1.99 in Tesco?

All good points, elegantly put!

Why did we learn to score-read at the piano from soprano, alto, tenor and bass clefs?  (And I do mean soprano, not treble).
Oh, how you bring back memories of C S Lang and all that stuff which I almost certainly couldn't do now however handsomely someone might pay me to try! Remembering the (possibly apocryphal) remark attributed to Chopin in his Mallorca years that "the only finer sound than a guitar is two guitars", I am minded to think that the only thing worse than Lang must be Lang Lang...

I mean who actually uses the tenor clef, apart from advanced cellists?   
Not only the trombonists that Richard mentions but also bassoonists occasionally.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #14 on: 00:20:51, 17-04-2008 »

When we talk about 'appreciation of the Arts', what exactly do we mean? Are we in danger of limiting the idea of 'the Arts' to a certain conception of 'high culture', especially in the case of music? After all, plenty of young people know a lot about, and appreciate (sometimes with quite intricate forms of discernment and notions of cultural meaning) popular music, but they wouldn't be categorised as having such 'appreciation'. Musical education has had to take account of this, and consider the fact that the various skills involved both for performers and listeners of these other musics at least deserve serious consideration of their own alongside the more traditional 'musical values'.

Learning soprano, alto, tenor, bass clefs is one thing, but mightn't learning tablature notation for the guitar be equally if not more important? And being able to improvise over a basic riff as important as doing traditional keyboard harmony? And knowing about 1960s Motown as important as knowing what Stockhausen or Nono were doing in the same period?

I'm continually in two minds about these issues, not at all claiming to have definitive solutions.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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