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Philidor
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« Reply #135 on: 14:11:14, 05-11-2008 » |
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But if it's disgraceful we're on about, it might be be thought at least dubious to disqualify any argument from the left on the grounds that any argument from the left would have played into the hands of McCain/Palin. I've no objection to arguments from the left. The more the merrier. What I object to are alleged leftists claiming there's no difference between Palin and Obama, that the results of the contest are likely to be identical. That's not an 'argument from the left'. It's idiocy masquerading as a leftist argument. It flies in the face of the facts. It insults millions who've just queued round the block to vote for him. It betrays a contempt for democracy, a cynicism, an absence of hope - the very things Obama has spent 22 months railing against. |
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time_is_now
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« Reply #136 on: 14:14:59, 05-11-2008 » |
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I agree with Philidor, actually ...
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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Antheil
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« Reply #137 on: 14:19:12, 05-11-2008 » |
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I agree with Philidor too.
During the campaign I did not notice a very strong presence of the new VP Joe Biden, in fact I know hardly anything about him.
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Reality, sa molesworth 2, is so sordid it makes me shudder
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Philidor
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« Reply #138 on: 14:23:41, 05-11-2008 » |
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That's taken the wind out of my sails.  During the campaign I did not notice a very strong presence of the new VP Joe Biden, in fact I know hardly anything about him.
He was brought in to shore up the blue collar / lower middle class / possibly racist white vote. He's the guy who nicked Neil Kinnock's speech. |
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« Last Edit: 14:26:44, 05-11-2008 by Philidor »
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...trj...
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« Reply #139 on: 14:24:24, 05-11-2008 » |
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One of them is that the choice of Sarah Palin seemed to be a bid by the Republicans to ignite the culture wars that have aided the Republicans in the past - slamming the Democrats on issues like abortion, guns and prayer in schools - and this time it didn't work. She did get by far the biggest and longest cheer from McCain's supporters at his concession speech though. I'm far from convinced we have heard the last of her. I very much doubt we have, George. As mentioned on another thread (or maybe this one, I'm losing track...) the Senate race in Alaska is not yet over, despite the fact that, should he win, the incumbent Republican will be immediately booted out of the Senate because of his recent conviction on corruption charges. This will force a second election, one in which we can probably expect Palin to stand and win. I wouldn't bet against her putting in her own campaign for the Presidency in 2012 or 2016. (Ooo, the latter might be interesting - Clinton vs Palin, an all-female race?) --- I also agree with Philidor that arguing that there's no real difference between Obama/Biden and McCain/Palin is hard to sustain. BUT, I don't share his confidence that troops will be out of Iraq in 16 months and that we have seen an end to backstreet abortionists. Obama has considerably moderated his views on the former as the campaign has gone on (he still wants the troops out, but will be led more by what is possible on the ground), and on abortion he has, like any candidate sadly must do, sat on the fence as far as I can tell. The differences lie elsewhere. |
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time_is_now
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« Reply #140 on: 14:31:41, 05-11-2008 » |
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much of the pleasure in 1997 - and now - is partly down to the sense of relief at what we've got rid of - sleazy Tories, Portillo losing his seat in 1997; Cheney, Bush and the appalling Sarah Palin now. Yes, it's not going to be Utopia, and I largely agree with HtoHe about the need for vigilance - but seeing the Tories or the Republicans comprehensively stuffed at the ballot box is IMO one of life's rare pleasures and should be savoured.
That's not what makes me happy: it's a positive pro-Obama feeling that motivates me, and it's to do with much more than his race or his oratorical skills, too. I'm much, much happier than I was when New Labour won the British general election in 1997 (I think I was already sceptical then), and I don't feel the comparison. (Which is not to say that vigilance isn't important. Of course it is, and I don't presume to know whether Obama will deliver on all his promises. But I'm happy - very happy - to wait and see.) |
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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HtoHe
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« Reply #141 on: 14:45:12, 05-11-2008 » |
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But if it's disgraceful we're on about, it might be be thought at least dubious What I object to are alleged leftists claiming there's no difference between Palin and Obama, there are probably lots of them. Of course there were also differences between New Labour & the Tories - one of which was that by the time NL got to their third-or-so Home Secretary lots of people were wishing we could have that nice Michael Howard back. I wouldn't argue that there's no difference between the two, but that both will run the same system and the overall effect is likely to be pretty much the same. I'm not impressed with the argument that you have to vote for someone you don't support because they just might make your wage slavery marginally more comfortable than another person you don't support. As for the people who queued to vote - well, no disrespect to them, but I think they'll be disappointed. |
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richard barrett
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« Reply #142 on: 14:47:07, 05-11-2008 » |
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I also agree with Philidor that arguing that there's no real difference between Obama/Biden and McCain/Palin is hard to sustain. BUT, I don't share his confidence that troops will be out of Iraq in 16 months and that we have seen an end to backstreet abortionists. Obama has considerably moderated his views on the former as the campaign has gone on (he still wants the troops out, but will be led more by what is possible on the ground), and on abortion he has, like any candidate sadly must do, sat on the fence as far as I can tell. The differences lie elsewhere.
So where in fact do you think these differences do lie? - and, more importantly, where do you think they will make a difference? Pulling out of Iraq isn't going to happen without the agreement of the oil companies and the "defence" industry, extending healthcare isn't going to happen without the agreement of the insurance and pharmaceutical companies, fundamental financial reform isn't going to happen without the agreement of Wall Street and redistributive tax reform isn't going to happen without the agreement of those many conservative Democrats who are as set against such policies as any Republicans. While the election result can be seen as a triumph of hope over fear, hope alone isn't going to solve any of these problems, nor is the impressive fact that Obama seems to have convinced so many people that (a) he isn't a liar like all other politicians and (b) that this actually matters. |
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Antheil
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« Reply #143 on: 14:48:35, 05-11-2008 » |
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That's taken the wind out of my sails. During the campaign I did not notice a very strong presence of the new VP Joe Biden, in fact I know hardly anything about him.
He was brought in to shore up the blue collar / lower middle class / possibly racist white vote. He's the guy who nicked Neil Kinnock's speech. Neil Kinnock's speech? Didn't know about that. You mean he had a speech worth nicking?  |
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Reality, sa molesworth 2, is so sordid it makes me shudder
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...trj...
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« Reply #144 on: 15:12:00, 05-11-2008 » |
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To give just a quick answer, Richard, I think the difference lies in character. All the problems you mention require, for their solution, a willingness to empathise and consult, clear-sighted pragmatism and an ability to convince others of the strength of your argument. I think Obama has shown consistently throughout his campaign that he is better equipped than McCain to do these things.
Of course I don't think he's a revolutionary, but I do think that his election - and the massive grassroots organisation that has characterised his route to the White House - mark a significant change in how candidates might run for office in future. I think the creation of an entire generation who can say to their children, we made this happen because we got out and worked for it, has to be to democracy's benefit. If there is to be a radical change in American politics surely this sort of empowerment of all voters (not just giving them the vote but demonstrating that old orders can be overturned if people want it enough, as well as giving them a real investment in the outcome of an election) could be a significant step towards that, for which we should feel just a little happier this morning afternoon (is it that time already?).
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« Last Edit: 15:18:43, 05-11-2008 by ...trj... »
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Daniel
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« Reply #145 on: 15:14:59, 05-11-2008 » |
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I certainly do think that who wins makes a difference that is tangible and important, if only in the fact that it gives certain people hope, a hope that would certainly have been trampled on with a victory for the Republicans for example. And I think that the underlying effect of such hope is important even though it might not be seen on the political stage straight away, it raises the quality of people's lives by its presence and can have the effect of galvanising people into action by somehow providing a slightly firmer feeling underfoot.
It surely must for instance have an incalculable effect on the consciousness of black children growing up in creating an unspoken sense of status, one that might be taken for granted and doesn't have to be vocalised or evangelised about (although that clearly does have to happen too) and in this way it matters I think.
As for the more immediate economic, health, education and foreign policy concerns I don't know if it will make much difference or not. I suspect not a huge one, I will wait to see, but the emotional and psychological effect of this victory if not very visible, may be very considerable I think, particularly in the long term.
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Lord Byron
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« Reply #146 on: 15:21:08, 05-11-2008 » |
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I strongly believe that we can not know the future but that I can enjoy this cup of tea and maria callas cd  |
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martle
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« Reply #147 on: 15:22:21, 05-11-2008 » |
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I think ...trj... sums it up pretty well as far as I'm concerned. No, it isn't a revolution, nor was it ever going to be. But it is a signal of hope for many, and a signal that change is at least possible, in broad cultural terms almost immediately, if not ever in political and economic ones.
I also am going to be determinedely happy about this result, at least for today. After all, Obama isn't even President yet!
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Green. Always green.
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...trj...
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« Reply #148 on: 15:33:00, 05-11-2008 » |
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Antheil
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« Reply #149 on: 15:42:52, 05-11-2008 » |
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I also am going to be determinedely happy about this result, at least for today. After all, Obama isn't even President yet!
Sorry, but a blonde question. In the UK, the day after the election, the defeated PM phones up Pickfords and clears off. Why is Obama not sworn in until January? ( I told you it was a blonde question) |
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Reality, sa molesworth 2, is so sordid it makes me shudder
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