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Author Topic: The elventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month  (Read 219 times)
Don Basilio
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Era solo un mio sospetto


« on: 14:52:47, 11-11-2008 »

Remembrance time makes me remember...

When I went to my Church primary school there were all these rough little boys, the sort who mocked me when I said I wanted to be a ballet dancer when I grew up, who were into the War, and when asked to do drawings were always representing the Battle of Britain in crayon.

I had never heard of the war, so I asked my mother "Mummy, who won the War?"

Bear in mind this was a household taking the Daily Telegraph, regarding the Tories as the natural party of government.

"It was so dreadful," said my mother, "and there was such terrible suffering and loss on both sides that no one really won it."

"O that's all right," I said "that means we won it really."
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
Mary Chambers
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« Reply #1 on: 16:06:50, 11-11-2008 »

Your mother was right, DB. Funnily enough, I've just put down the phone after talking to a friend of mine who married a German music teacher, and they have recently come back to live in the UK after 20 years in Germany. She says they have found that there is still a certain amount of anti-German feeling here.

I was at nursery school during the last part of the war, and started proper school the year that it finished. I don't think it was ever mentioned at school at all - if so it made no impression on me. When my own children started school in the 1970s, they came home with all sorts of nasty anti-German  jokes, soon utterly squashed by me.

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Don Basilio
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Era solo un mio sospetto


« Reply #2 on: 16:40:14, 11-11-2008 »

I also picked up from my mother a distinct distaste for the Remembrance Sunday events.  All those men never going to church in their medals who never go to church for the rest of the year.  (Not that my mother did either, but she has a highly developed sense of pretension.  My own religiosity was probably my own version of teenage rebellion.)

But with hindsight I never realised how dreadful it must have been to live through those years of possibly invasion and air raids.  Remembrance Day events (with whatever municipal pomposity or Vera Lynn, ITMA sentimentality) were one way of coping with that traumatic time.

My mother coped with the memory differently.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
Mary Chambers
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Posts: 2589



« Reply #3 on: 16:47:02, 11-11-2008 »

I have a strong distaste for Remembrance Sunday too, but not for that reason, which I confess I hadn't thought of. It's the military nature of it. If you watch the services on television, you see uniforms, marching, even guns. Seems all wrong to me.
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Don Basilio
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Era solo un mio sospetto


« Reply #4 on: 16:59:10, 11-11-2008 »

And it is funny that the defeat of fascism should be associated with the right of centre in this country.

I never attended Remembrance Sunday does as a child, and only saw them on the TV.  In my experience of churches, a commemoration is made in the course of the normal Sunday service, with two minutes silence not necessarily at eleven.  The sermon is frequently a condemnation of war.

The other distastful aspect was the sentimentality - O wasn't it wonderful in the war, when we had Vera Lynn, Tommy Handley and we all pulled together.

I used to sneer at all this, but I realise it was a way of coping with such terrible circumstances and fear which I doubt whether I could.

A friend of mine who was an evacuee from Bethnal Green (he would have been 8 in 1939) only said once something along the lines of how people say it was wonderful in the war, but it wasn't, it was horrible.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
richard barrett
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« Reply #5 on: 17:53:01, 11-11-2008 »

And it is funny that the defeat of fascism should be associated with the right of centre in this country.

I don't think the fact that fascism was defeated was anything like as important for Western (and indeed Soviet) ruling classes as the fact that their own interests won out. Hardly any war in history has been fought for "just" reasons, although occasionally the circumstances are such that they can be "sold" as such. If Churchill had cared about fascism he would have bombed the Nazi death camps as various Jewish delegations unsuccessfully begged him to.
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perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #6 on: 19:55:18, 11-11-2008 »

And it is funny that the defeat of fascism should be associated with the right of centre in this country.

I don't think the fact that fascism was defeated was anything like as important for Western (and indeed Soviet) ruling classes as the fact that their own interests won out. Hardly any war in history has been fought for "just" reasons, although occasionally the circumstances are such that they can be "sold" as such. If Churchill had cared about fascism he would have bombed the Nazi death camps as various Jewish delegations unsuccessfully begged him to.

Indeed - quite a lot of what one might collectively describe as the British ruling classes - including the abdicated Edward VIII, and the Daily Mail of course, were strong and uncritical supporters of what Hitler claimed to be doing in Germany.  One of the most telling exhibits in the Holocaust section of the Imperial War Museum is a collage of comment pages from British newspapers - the Daily Mail principal among them - claiming that Britain was being swamped by Jewish immigrants making false claims about being being in danger.  Some things change very little.

The other distastful aspect was the sentimentality - O wasn't it wonderful in the war, when we had Vera Lynn, Tommy Handley and we all pulled together.

....

A friend of mine who was an evacuee from Bethnal Green (he would have been 8 in 1939) only said once something along the lines of how people say it was wonderful in the war, but it wasn't, it was horrible.

This is borne out by what I have heard from my own family and friends - my father send away from London to relatives in County Durham, who looked after him splendidly by all accounts, but hearing reports of the Blitz on the wireless and wondering.  And the story of a splendid nonagerian lady I know, describing how when her husband was wounded on D-Day - he lost a leg - she was pushed from pillar to post by the authorities who wouldn't even tell her when he was returning, and her realisation that for all the obstruction, as the wife of an officer she was being treated immeasurably better than the wives of wounded soldiers in the other ranks.



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At every one of these [classical] concerts in England you will find rows of weary people who are there, not because they really like classical music, but because they think they ought to like it. (Shaw, Don Juan in Hell)
Antheil
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« Reply #7 on: 23:13:23, 11-11-2008 »

I don't want to get involved with politics, but until recently was not really caring about Armistice Day celebrations.

However, I did my family history and found Great-Uncle in the Burma Campaign and Prison Camp (and having to wear a surgical corset from henceforth) and then prior generation, WW1, Royal Army Medical Corps, Welsh Regiment, not to mention military history going back to the 1800s, and I thought.  Hang On, this is my fambly what done this!!  And somehow, this changed it all, made it so personal, especially when I got the Army records.

Today, the cannon went off at 11.00am and all in the street stood silent for 2 minutes.  I don't think that is too much to ask for those, for whatever reasons, whether to get away from the aching poverty of the colliery or a life as an ag lab or even had no choice in the matter (conscription as in WW1) to remember those, usually very young boys.  But I am just over sentimental and simple I guess.

No-one in my family ever talked about the War although some had lived through it.
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Reality, sa molesworth 2, is so sordid it makes me shudder
richard barrett
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« Reply #8 on: 23:42:06, 11-11-2008 »

I don't think anyone is saying that commemorating those who died in war is wrong, or sentimental, just (well this is what I'm saying anyway) that nobody should think that there's anything idealistic or noble about war. Of course it has driven many people to heroic and selfless acts, but how much better the world would have been if those acts had never needed to take place.
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perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #9 on: 07:26:29, 12-11-2008 »

Alan Bennett's epigram from The History Boys sums up official remembrance rather well:

"While we may speak of 'Remembrance Day,' the real purpose of war memorials, like Coventry and the Cenotaph, is to aid forgetting [of the realities of war], not remembering."

I believe should certainly remember those who went to war - but IMO there is something fantastically nauseating about watching the pomp and ceremony in Whitehall, against the background of the illegal wars being fought for oil in Iraq and Afghanistan.
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At every one of these [classical] concerts in England you will find rows of weary people who are there, not because they really like classical music, but because they think they ought to like it. (Shaw, Don Juan in Hell)
Mary Chambers
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« Reply #10 on: 09:13:01, 12-11-2008 »

Also, the language used at these ceremonies is sentimental and euphemistic. Words like conflict, sacrifice, the fallen are aimed at disguising the bloody squandering of life. Even the poppy symbol adds to the general prettifying of the hideous. I know these things help to spare the feelings of the relations of the dead, but they are dishonest. I'd like to see Laurence Binyon replaced by Wilfred Owen.
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BobbyZ
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« Reply #11 on: 09:19:12, 12-11-2008 »

My father wasn't killed in WW2 but he was very much a victim of it, so much so that there could be some truth in the thought that I never knew the real essence of him as he was prior to the war, since I was born as a boomer in the early fifties. He lost an arm a few days into the D-Day landings which was particularly devastating given his trade as a skilled fishmonger ( when such a thing existed, filleting and gutting etc ) He also suffered from shell shock , or post traumatic stress as it would now be called, and lost all of his hair prematurely although a little grew back. Of course he came back to some sort of normality for the rest of his life but it wasn't the life he had envisaged and was shrunken in ambition and achievement.

He is always at the forefront of my thoughts around Rememberance day, something he never celebrated or bothered with other than wearing the poppy. He never talked about the war and I only found out many of the details after his death. The idea of Rememberance has been hijacked as it always would be ( Thatcher wreath laying anyone ? ) but that doesn't take away from the act of remembering.
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Dreams, schemes and themes
strinasacchi
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« Reply #12 on: 11:05:43, 12-11-2008 »

Hijacking grief to fuel (I use the word deliberately) political ends constantly goes on.  Look at what happened with the world trade center.  How many relatives of the dead objected to the political use to which the tragedy was put?  It only added to the helpless rage and grief of many to see those deaths being used as a war cry.
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