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Author Topic: Leo Abse  (Read 588 times)
time_is_now
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« Reply #15 on: 13:35:10, 28-08-2008 »

I'm finding it a little hard to see how that managed to be an argument for the extension of gay rights (I wonder how far Abse would have gone with the equality movement on that basis: was it just about decriminalisation for him?) but I suppose if it helped achieve the first step, then we should be willing to acknowledge that it was what was needed at the time.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
Don Basilio
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« Reply #16 on: 14:06:30, 28-08-2008 »

I don't know the background to that quote.  Maybe he was arguing from that position that criminalization made it harder to deal with the supposed pathology.

I can think of straights being "liberal" about gays and lesbians, whose personal attitude is just patronizing and superior.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
Swan_Knight
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« Reply #17 on: 15:38:58, 28-08-2008 »

I don't know the background to that quote.  Maybe he was arguing from that position that criminalization made it harder to deal with the supposed pathology.

I can think of straights being "liberal" about gays and lesbians, whose personal attitude is just patronizing and superior.

Which was the whole attitude behind the original Wolfenden Report, as I seem to remember reading. 

Even today, there is a common attitude among the so-called 'liberal' middle-classes that homosexuals are to be pitied.  The mainstream media panders to this attitude, hence the 'soft' portrayal of gay life in pre-watershed viewing fare like 'Coronation Street'.  But, as usual, scratch a liberal and you'll find something a lot less pleasant underneath: these people tend to find the idea of straight-acting, non-camp, happy and sexually fulfilled homosexuals very disturbing indeed. 
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richard barrett
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« Reply #18 on: 15:40:23, 28-08-2008 »

Even today, there is a common attitude among the so-called 'liberal' middle-classes that homosexuals are to be pitied. 

Where exactly have you encountered this?
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #19 on: 15:49:18, 28-08-2008 »

The 1966 election gave Labour a large majority, bringing in a flood of younger and more liberal MPs, making the passage of a bill in the next Parliament a near certainty. In July 1966 Abse brought in his second bill, drafted by the Home Office under instructions from Roy Jenkins. Abse's crucial contribution was to persuade John Silkin, the government whip, to allow parliamentary time. Abse's bill set an age of consent of 21 and provided severe penalties for sex with persons under that age. This, Abse noted, "aroused anger among supporters of the Homosexualist Reform Society, who considered 21 far too high an age: but I would not accommodate them, both because I was unconvinced they were right and for tactical reasons." . . . The bill became law in July 1967. Abse supported decriminalisation in the hope that this would allow "a diminution in the incidence of homosexualism" through better education and support for fatherless boys, whom he believed were the most likely to fall "victim" to "the curse, for such it must be, of a male body encasing a feminine soul." He believed that homosexualism was one of the evils of old pre-war class obsessed Britain that would soon perish in the new egalitarian Butskellian post-war Britain.

Throughout the debate, men who indulged in homosexualistic sex were depicted as "victims." Much was made of blackmail, and most of the speeches in favour of reform concentrated on this evil, indulged in a ritual condemnation of the iniquities of homosexualism, and placed themselves firmly against any form of "exhibitionism" or "proselytising."

Praise and thanks for what small and grudging improvements there have thus far (we mean until 2008) been in the treatment of the homosexualist in society are due we think not so much to Mr. Abse but to brave men such as Anthony Grey and his fellows at the Albany Trust.
« Last Edit: 15:54:53, 28-08-2008 by Sydney Grew » Logged
Don Basilio
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« Reply #20 on: 15:55:44, 28-08-2008 »

For the last generation, my partner has been perfectly explicit about my existence to his brothers and sisters, who are now middle class, but Daily Mail readers.   They have done well for themselves, partly because their parents, from a touch more modest background, wanted them to.  I expect a set up sk would approve of.  They have always been polite to me and accepted me and invited me to family dos.  That is generous of them, and I would want to be generous in exchange.  But we always feel that they are not quite easy with the set up.  We never talk about it to them.  We asked them to come to the service of blessing for our civil partnership, and although my sister came, none of them did.

Class, campness and sexual fulfillment are irrelevant.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
Sydney Grew
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« Reply #21 on: 16:02:17, 28-08-2008 »

For the last generation, my partner has been perfectly explicit about my existence to his brothers and sisters, who are now middle class, but Daily Mail readers.   They have done well for themselves, partly because their parents, from a touch more modest background, wanted them to.  I expect a set up sk would approve of.  They have always been polite to me and accepted me and invited me to family dos.  That is generous of them, and I would want to be generous in exchange.  But we always feel that they are not quite easy with the set up.  We never talk about it to them.  We asked them to come to the service of blessing for our civil partnership, and although my sister came, none of them did.

Class, campness and sexual fulfillment are irrelevant.

Families in the Far East are in our experience much easier and more accepting of these relationships. Many of the difficulties are specifically British difficulties! ("Hangs-up" the Americans would say.)
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time_is_now
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« Reply #22 on: 16:04:05, 28-08-2008 »

Even today, there is a common attitude among the so-called 'liberal' middle-classes that homosexuals are to be pitied.
Where exactly have you encountered this?
I don't know if 'pity' is quite the word, but this:
people tend to find the idea of straight-acting, non-camp, happy and sexually fulfilled homosexuals very disturbing indeed
strikes me as spot on.

Campness and sexual fulfilment are not at all irrelevant. Campness is the sign under which gay men are accepted in areas of society which still cannot deal with the idea of men with real, non-camp sexual desire for other men. When the effeminate gay virgin Brian Dowling won Big Brother four or five years ago this was acclaimed as evidence that being gay was no longer a bar to social acceptance; but you only needed to compare him to the other gay contestant that year, Josh Rafter, who is much closer in personality, appearance and behaviour to a large number of urban gay men, to see what gay men are still expected to sacrifice or suppress in order to pass muster at the dinner table.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
Swan_Knight
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« Reply #23 on: 16:15:37, 28-08-2008 »

Even today, there is a common attitude among the so-called 'liberal' middle-classes that homosexuals are to be pitied. 

Where exactly have you encountered this?
[/quote


Amongst the so-called liberal middle-class people with whom I have most of my daily dealings.  None of whom, incidentally, are Daily Mail readers.
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #24 on: 16:54:30, 28-08-2008 »

[...] this:
people tend to find the idea of straight-acting, non-camp, happy and sexually fulfilled homosexuals very disturbing indeed
strikes me as spot on.

Campness and sexual fulfilment are not at all irrelevant. Campness is the sign under which gay men are accepted in areas of society which still cannot deal with the idea of men with real, non-camp sexual desire for other men. [...] what gay men are still expected to sacrifice or suppress in order to pass muster at the dinner table.

It is mostly old-fashioned prudishness is not it? There is an overpowering fear of delight!

      "So he took his wings and fled;
       Then the morn blush'd rosy red;
       I dried my tears & arm'd my fears
       With ten thousand shields and spears."
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Baz
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« Reply #25 on: 17:07:34, 28-08-2008 »

[...] this:
people tend to find the idea of straight-acting, non-camp, happy and sexually fulfilled homosexuals very disturbing indeed
strikes me as spot on.

Campness and sexual fulfilment are not at all irrelevant. Campness is the sign under which gay men are accepted in areas of society which still cannot deal with the idea of men with real, non-camp sexual desire for other men. [...] what gay men are still expected to sacrifice or suppress in order to pass muster at the dinner table.

It is mostly old-fashioned prudishness is not it? There is an overpowering fear of delight!

      "So he took his wings and fled;
       Then the morn blush'd rosy red;
       I dried my tears & arm'd my fears
       With ten thousand shields and spears."


We sense the influence of William Blake do not we?
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #26 on: 17:15:26, 28-08-2008 »

I think what I meant above was that sk had a point about many straights finding gays and lesbians unsettling, but not admitting it, and that is so issues of camp etc are irrelevant to that.

What you describe from Big Brother sounds just the sort of patronising acceptance that I can imagine.  I certainly had to restrain my camp side when I was working in social housing.  It is a great relief to express it now, on my terms, not on others.  I hope it is not too irritating.

No price is worth paying for many suburban dinner parties.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
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George Garnett
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« Reply #27 on: 18:21:27, 28-08-2008 »

Which was the whole attitude behind the original Wolfenden Report, as I seem to remember reading. 

There's an element of that in the Report but Wolfenden as Chairman, very cleverly and astutely IMHO, made the central argument of the final Report one about individual rights and what proscriptive laws should justifiably be about, rather than about the nature of homosexuality.  He made it very difficult for anyone, whatever other views they might have about homosexuality, to disagree with his conclusion that what consenting adults got up to in private was not an appropriate area for the criminal law.

And anyway, Lord Wolfenden also chaired the Selection Board that got me my first job so I won't hear a word against him Smiley.

Also FWIW I think it is Roy Jenkins who deserves much of the credit for getting it on the statute book. It was essentially his decision as Home Secretary to back it that allowed it to happen. The key element was that he effectively made it a Government 'hand out' Private Members Bill (not that there are such things of course Cool).    
« Last Edit: 19:15:09, 28-08-2008 by George Garnett » Logged
Swan_Knight
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« Reply #28 on: 18:23:47, 28-08-2008 »

Am I missing something, but I thought that Tory MP Humphrey Barclay was the driving force behind this bill? Huh
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #29 on: 01:57:32, 29-08-2008 »

Am I missing something, but I thought that Tory MP Humphrey Barclay was the driving force behind this bill? Huh

Indeed in February 1966 Humphrey Berkeley moved a private member's bill which passed the second reading stage by 164 votes to 107; but it lapsed when the 1966 election - at which Berkeley who knows why lost his seat! - intervened. Thus the above-mentioned entry of Jenkins and re-entry of Abse in July 1966.

During that period we were residing in the Nether-lands and having a marvellous time without any petty British restrictions! The Dutch used to be so open-minded.
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