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Author Topic: Haydn and Mozart operas  (Read 313 times)
trained-pianist
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« on: 07:19:06, 26-05-2007 »

I am more or less familiar with many of Mozart's operas.
Haydn's operas are not as known.
Recently I heard exerpts from his operas on COTW and also in a few other programs

I loved his opera music very much. Why is his operas not staged more often?
I read somewhere that his music for operas is not as original as his oratorias or piano sonatas or simphonies and this is why it is not so popular.

Do people agree with this opinion?

May be the reason for Haydn's operas not being popular is the dramatic weakness (I think it was Reiner who said it).
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #1 on: 09:29:47, 26-05-2007 »

Quote
the dramatic weakness (I think it was Reiner who said it).

I'm afraid it was me who said it - I had ORLANDO PALADINO in mind at the time, I think?  However, I think even Haydn's major supporters have agreed that he had poor librettos foisted on him, over which he had little choice. Luckily there are several amongst his operas which have a wild "fantasy" element that makes good theatre anyhow:  IL MONDO DELLA LUNA ("The World Of The Moon"), and L'ISOLA DISABITATA ("The Desert Island"), for example.

Does anyone know "LA CANTERINA" ("The Opera-Singer") - I've never heard that one?   I read somewhere (in a sleeve-note about Mozart's BASTIEN & BASTIENNE, I think?) that Mozart was indebted to Haydn for the creation of the genre of German-language Singspiels, pantomimes, "Hans-Wurst" slapstick pieces etc...   but I realise I don't actually know any such pieces by Haydn?   In fact "PHILIMON UND BAUCIS" is the only one I know of with a German title...  the title seems to suggest some kind of "pastoral" piece - does anyone know the music?
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
trained-pianist
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« Reply #2 on: 10:04:51, 26-05-2007 »

I liked   IL MONDO DELLA LUNA very much. I wish they will stage it. I don't know the other opera.
I was pleasantly surprised with Haydn's operas.
It is good that at least two operas have a good plot. Plots of Handel's operas (or Monteverdi or Gluck) can be cumbersome too.
Who knows may be time will come for Haydn's operas. 
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #3 on: 10:18:03, 26-05-2007 »

I hope so too - Haydn's operas are at least as good as many of the "lesser talents" of the era, like Cimarosa, whose works are now being staged quite frequently.  It's a pity he lost interest in writing operas in his later years - I wonder what "mature Haydn" operas might have sounded like?
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
trained-pianist
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« Reply #4 on: 17:10:41, 26-05-2007 »

Haydn and Mozart have similar styles. They were contemporaries and they did influence each other.
However, there is a difference in their style.

I know piano sonatas of both better than operas so I can talk about piano sonatas.

If I compare Mozart piano sonatas to that of Haydn I can see very big stylistic differences. Mozart has more melodious style. Haydn is very inventive.
The forms are very different. Haydn has more variety in form.
Mozart loved piano as an instrument and so did Haydn.

Perhaps people can continue the comparison since I am not good with language and don't have good research background or experience.
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #5 on: 17:56:35, 26-05-2007 »

But I got some very nice Irish songs today in a packet  Smiley  Thank you very much  Smiley
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
trained-pianist
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« Reply #6 on: 17:58:14, 26-05-2007 »

I did not expect it to be so fast.
But can you compare Mozart and Haydn, Reiner? And please tell me what do you think of Irish songs. I value your opinion very much.
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #7 on: 18:13:14, 26-05-2007 »

Ooooh, I'm not qualified to compare Mozart with Haydn.  If I'd paid attention in my lectures long ago, perhaps I would have a chance, but I think here we need Ollie or Ron or Richard or Ian.

The only comparison I know between Mozart and Haydn has - oddly enough - got an Irish connection.  It's called "The O'Grady Minuet Test", and it's taught to kids,  as a way of telling Haydn from Mozart.  Here's how it works.  Your job is to tell from a sonata, symphony, cassation etc whether the composer is Haydn or Mozart.  You quietly relax in the first two movements.  Then comes the minuet.  Can you fit the following words to the minuet?  "Are YOU the o'GRA-dy who RUNS this ho-TEL?".  If yes, then Mozart.  If not, then Haydn.  Please collect a Bachelor Of Music Certificate from the chair at the back as you leave.  Next week we tell Berg from Webern with the assistance of some iron filings and a magnet.
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
eruanto
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« Reply #8 on: 21:03:18, 26-05-2007 »

Haydn seems to be consistently more humourous than Mozart. As if he's playing some kind of inward practical joke with the aristocracy. He does it in such a way that the humour is almost eradicated by his aforementioned inventiveness (sonata in E flat; middle movement in E major / minor, for example).

But of course, unlike Mozart, he could afford to be so.

It was Haydn who secured an annual pension from some big cheese or other, wasn't it??
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #9 on: 21:09:30, 26-05-2007 »

eruanto,
I think that in piano sonatas Haydn does have more humour, but in operas Mozart has plenty of humour.
Do you agree?
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MabelJane
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« Reply #10 on: 21:10:45, 26-05-2007 »

The only comparison I know between Mozart and Haydn has - oddly enough - got an Irish connection.  It's called "The O'Grady Minuet Test", and it's taught to kids,  as a way of telling Haydn from Mozart.  Here's how it works.  Your job is to tell from a sonata, symphony, cassation etc whether the composer is Haydn or Mozart.  You quietly relax in the first two movements.  Then comes the minuet.  Can you fit the following words to the minuet?  "Are YOU the o'GRA-dy who RUNS this ho-TEL?".  If yes, then Mozart.  If not, then Haydn.  Please collect a Bachelor Of Music Certificate from the chair at the back as you leave.  Next week we tell Berg from Webern with the assistance of some iron filings and a magnet.

 Grin Grin Grin
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Merely corroborative detail, intended to give artistic verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative.
eruanto
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« Reply #11 on: 21:12:10, 26-05-2007 »

exactly! that's the reason for "consistently".  Grin

Haydn's humour is more hum intellectual, i think.
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #12 on: 21:16:44, 26-05-2007 »

Yes, I agree with you. Haydn sense of humour is different than Mozart. I like them both. I love Mozart's sense of humour. He is so much fun. And he knew and understood women really well. I love his female characters.
Haydn is different. He is also a lot of fun, but in a different way. I love Haydn very much.
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