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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #15 on: 17:43:18, 06-06-2007 » |
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Ian, I am no longer replying to your posts, on this or any other topic. I suggest other board-members do likewise.
I have reported you to the Moderators, and I hope they ban you permanently this time. You and what you have to contribute here would be no loss.
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
- Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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autoharp
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« Reply #16 on: 18:07:55, 06-06-2007 » |
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richard barrett
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« Reply #17 on: 18:19:00, 06-06-2007 » |
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in operas (or at least, in well-written operas), the music carries the action forwards. In musicals, by contrast, the music tends to provide a commentary on the action Well put. But I wonder what you'd call a drama with musical numbers interpolated through it (so far, looking like a musical) which however uses a more, how shall I put it, elevated style than that of the songs in a typical musical? Has that kind of thing been done? I mean, the difference between Wozzeck and Carousel isn't just to do with the music or the spoken sections carrying the action, or with the subject matter... (Like Opilec, I apologise if this has come up previously!) |
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #18 on: 18:23:12, 06-06-2007 » |
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Richard, Opiliec
Please carry on. The debate was rather overwhelmed by a surge of not completely relevant dialectical materialism, and some succinct musical analysis would be very welcome.
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« Last Edit: 19:24:59, 06-06-2007 by Don Basilio »
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #19 on: 18:55:59, 06-06-2007 » |
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in operas (or at least, in well-written operas), the music carries the action forwards. In musicals, by contrast, the music tends to provide a commentary on the action Well put. But I wonder what you'd call a drama with musical numbers interpolated through it (so far, looking like a musical) which however uses a more, how shall I put it, elevated style than that of the songs in a typical musical? Has that kind of thing been done? You might call it Die Entführung aus dem Serail, at least for much of the work. With a few exceptions (e.g. the Trio at the end of Act 1, or the Quartet in Act 2) the drama progresses via the spoken text, whilst the musical numbers are there to crystallise certain emotional states. And aspects of this model continued throughout the nineteenth century and even into the twentieth (Britten made clear his allegiance to a mode of operatic in which there is a distinction between dramatic and contemplative writing; even though he only uses spoken text at one crucial point in Grimes, there is still a significant proportion of the music that does not really serve a dramatic function. This particular distinction between music as drama or music as commentary doesn't hold for a very large amount of the operatic repertoire. |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #20 on: 20:09:39, 06-06-2007 » |
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Ian -
I've just had a thought. When the hero of a Somerset Maughan story or Bertie Wooster say that they spend the evening having supper and going out to a show, they are not seeing Ponselle as Norma or Flagstad in Wagner. They are going to Chu Chin Chow or No! No! Nanette or something undemanding.
At the same time, the wonderful Lilian Bayliss was providing Mozart for the masses at Sadlers Wells (Clerkenwell) and the Old Vic (Lambeth).
So musicals for the toffs, opera for the masses.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
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Soundwave
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« Reply #21 on: 21:36:15, 06-06-2007 » |
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Ho! Surely, opera is "through composed". A musical, singspiel, operetta - these are not "through composed". Strictly speaking then, is not Les Miserables an opera as is Trial by Jury.
Cheers
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Ho! I may be old yet I am still lusty
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thompson1780
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« Reply #22 on: 22:39:11, 06-06-2007 » |
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I wonder if we need a precise definition. I like ambiguity sometimes. Remember there may be a grey area between the ends of the Opera-Musical Spectrum.
So for me, characteristics of musicals are that:
they have words which describe the plot, between songs which add music to the thing that has been spoken.
they are more commercially oriented
and operas:
tend to have recitatives, or at least musical accompaniment to spoken words
are not commercially oriented
But of course there will be exceptions to the rule. Can't we just describe those pieces as semi-opera / musicals.
By the way, I should congratulate Lord Byron for keeping some levity and treating the title as a joke, although I did actually find the Torheit/Pace exchange quite amusing in places.
And Rei - your reply 11 probably makes your call for Ian to be banned a little excessive. I personally feel like I'm marginally more in agreement with you, but my logic says that there isn't a lot wrong with what Ian has said. For instance - whilst we may not have given a name to Bourgoise in Mozart's time, there were people who lived of capital rather than income. Something can exist, even if it isn't named until later.
Cheers
Tommo
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Made by Thompson & son, at the Violin & c. the West end of St. Paul's Churchyard, LONDON
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richard barrett
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« Reply #23 on: 22:47:17, 06-06-2007 » |
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You're right, Tommo, music doesn't always (ever?) admit of precise definitions.
Then of course there are also ROCK OPERAS, after one of which you're almost named. We don't see too many of those these days. What I find most depressing in the music/theatre area is those "musicals" which consist only of the greatest hits of some pop artist or other, strung together by some tenuous kind of plot. That's "commercial orientation" at its worst if you ask me. Mind you, as Reiner no doubt knows better than any of us, they were doing stuff like that back in the 18th century too.
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martle
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« Reply #24 on: 22:52:31, 06-06-2007 » |
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Agreed, Richard. A talented comic and writer such as Ben Elton should be thoroughly ashamed of himself for that Queen nonsense.  |
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Green. Always green.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #25 on: 23:18:14, 06-06-2007 » |
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Then of course there are also ROCK OPERAS, after one of which you're almost named. We don't see too many of those these days. Not perhaps one of rock music's finest hours  What I find most depressing in the music/theatre area is those "musicals" which consist only of the greatest hits of some pop artist or other, strung together by some tenuous kind of plot. That's "commercial orientation" at its worst if you ask me. Mind you, as Reiner no doubt knows better than any of us, they were doing stuff like that back in the 18th century too. The practice of putting well-known numbers into an opera very loosely strung together in terms of plot (though if plot is a central criteria, an awful lot of operas wouldn't score too well) extends into the nineteenth century as well, with successful numbers poached from one opera for another (Rossini and Donizetti both did this, I think). But that is perhaps not so different to Bach's practice of writing 'parody cantatas', transforming a secular cantata into a sacred one (though never the other way round) simply by changing the text? But 'greatest hits' in the 18th or even 19th century were of a wholly different order to those of today in terms of levels of familiarity and popularity. It would be interesting to know what Weill, or Gershwin, both of who wrote in both genres, would make of this question. |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #26 on: 23:23:59, 06-06-2007 » |
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For instance - whilst we may not have given a name to Bourgoise in Mozart's time, there were people who lived of capital rather than income. Something can exist, even if it isn't named until later. The term bourgeoisie, meaning non-aristocratic merchants and traders, existed long before Marx and Engels, though they gave it a more rigorous definition. |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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pim_derks
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« Reply #27 on: 23:48:04, 06-06-2007 » |
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The term bourgeoisie, meaning non-aristocratic merchants and traders, existed long before Marx and Engels, though they gave it a more rigorous definition.
That's true. The term needed a more rigorous definition in the days of Marx and Engels because the bourgeoisie was in control then. During the Ancien Régime the aristocracy was in control. |
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"People hate anything well made. It gives them a guilty conscience." John Betjeman
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Tony Watson
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« Reply #28 on: 00:16:47, 07-06-2007 » |
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Does anyone else here remember Keith West and Excerpt from a Teenage Opera? Grocer Jack, Grocer Jack... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lc9hvAZ4tpANow there's food (no pun intended) for thought. Ian, I am no longer replying to your posts, on this or any other topic. I suggest other board-members do likewise.
I have reported you to the Moderators, and I hope they ban you permanently this time. You and what you have to contribute here would be no loss.
Reiner, much as I have appreciated your postings in the past here and elsewhere, I have to say you do over-react sometimes. |
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« Last Edit: 00:38:27, 07-06-2007 by Tony Watson »
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pim_derks
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« Reply #29 on: 00:39:46, 07-06-2007 » |
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Thank you very much for posting this, Tony. The sound of the orchestra is wonderful. It reminds me of the great orchestras from the 1960s: Paul Mauriat, Raymond Lefebvre, Kai Warner, etc. |
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"People hate anything well made. It gives them a guilty conscience." John Betjeman
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