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Ian Pace
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« Reply #45 on: 19:34:38, 10-07-2007 » |
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All of which is a long way from the crude caricature of Wagner, which is the point I was trying to make! Absolutely - your reading of it is very interesting. I would personally (were I ever to write at length on Wagner, not something I currently plan to, not least because it's been done much better already) try and bring that into a dialogue with the rhetorical workings of the music, its denial of interiority (or mystification of such) in favour of manipulative (and often rather crude) propagandistic rhetoric, at least in places (least so in Die Walküre and some places (though by no means all) in Siegfried), which themselves have political implications. I wondered, as one who knows the work very well, what you thought of Adorno's Versuch über Wagner? Obviously not very sympathetic at all to the composer (to say the least), but would you agree with me that at best he presents some penetrating insights into the workings of the music-dramas (which have implications for other music as well)? I find it one of his very best books. |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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operacat
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« Reply #46 on: 19:54:58, 10-07-2007 » |
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I've occasionally tried arguing that the Ring can, inter alia, be read as an anti-fascist tract Rather you than me - how would you do that? Oh dear....I was going to go home, having spent about half-an-hour vainly trying to book a train ticket to Edinburgh....still, nothing to cheer one up like a good old debate about Wagner!!!  First of all, Wagner DIED in 1883 - Fascism was an invention of the 20th. century. I know that now we tend to use the word "Fascist" as a general term of abuse, but strictly speaking it refers to the followers of Mussolini. (My partner teaches Italian history....  ) But yes, certainly Das Rheingold has elements of a vaguely conceived Socialist Utopia...surely some of you must have read Shaw's The Perfect Wagnerite? The analogy doesn't hold good for the entire RING, though, because Wagner started reading Schopenhauer during his Swiss exile and dropped all his revolutionary ideas. |
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nature abhors a vacuum - but not as much as cats do.
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operacat
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« Reply #47 on: 20:02:33, 10-07-2007 » |
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I've occasionally tried arguing that the Ring can, inter alia, be read as an anti-fascist tract Rather you than me - how would you do that? Well, you've already made some of the case in reply 46 above - and I'd certainly agree that the seeds of what became fascism in the twentieth century were sown and flourishing in the nineteenth. (I'm also aware that fascism is a notoriously slippery concept, and in my earlier post I might have been better off referring to authoritarianism) Loge gives the game away with his speech at the end of Rheingold ("Ihrem Ende eilen sie zu"); Nibelheim is an obvious metaphor for capitalist industry (as Wagner himself acknowledged); we sympathise with Siegmund and Sieglinde as they break free from Hunding's family values; Siegfried is laid low by hubris and what Jungians would call inflation (the fearless Aryan youth is also a horribly incomplete human being); Gutrune  paints a horrific picture of Wotan in his bunker awaiting the end; ...maybe it was just a typo!! Hagen seals his relationship with Siegfried with a classic image of blood and soil, the swearing of blood-brotherhood, an image of pure malice. Ah, no...Hagen REFUSES to swear the oath of blood-brotherhood - THAT'S where the malice lies. As to the significance of the oath of blood-brotherhood, I've attempted to explain it here - http://members.fortunecity.co.uk/leonora/ring1.html(You'll probably have to skip to section 3 or 4) And so on. Obviously there are aspects of what we would today describe as fascism that aren't in the Ring (there is nothing here about nationality for a start, and little about the economic basis for fascism, although Shaw and others have pointed out how Alberich and the Nibelungs fit this particular mould); and I take the point about nature-worship and Herderian romanticism.
All of which is a long way from the crude caricature of Wagner, which is the point I was trying to make! |
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nature abhors a vacuum - but not as much as cats do.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #48 on: 20:24:19, 10-07-2007 » |
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First of all, Wagner DIED in 1883 - Fascism was an invention of the 20th. century. I know that now we tend to use the word "Fascist" as a general term of abuse, but strictly speaking it refers to the followers of Mussolini. (My partner teaches Italian history.... ) With a capital F it does, yes; with a small 'f' it is also used more generically to denote a range of distinct but related far-right ideologies and parties that came into power in that period, and also some of the post-1945 far right parties they begat. There are of course those who argue that Italian Fascism is entirely distinct to other manifestations; whilst respecting that opinion, I don't share it. To call Le Pen a fascist (which I would) is not the same as just using it as a general term of abuse - it is actually to locate his beliefs in a particular political lineage. But yes, certainly Das Rheingold has elements of a vaguely conceived Socialist Utopia...surely some of you must have read Shaw's The Perfect Wagnerite? Yes, that was mentioned a few posts ago. Just to add, I don't want to join the chorus of those who would condemn Wagner's music entirely on account of the political ideologies that infuse both music and text (and maybe stage design and everything else as well) - there is certainly more to it than that (it remains interesting not least on account of its internal contradictions) - but at the same time don't think we can discount that element either in attempting to understand it both as artistic work and as historical-cultural artefact. |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #49 on: 21:54:40, 10-07-2007 » |
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Waltraute...maybe it was just a typo!!
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There's a lesson here about trying to post in between doing domestic chores ... of course I meant Waltraute!!!!  And likewise the oath of blood-brotherhood; although I feel that Hagen's refusal to participate has much to do with a sort of vestigial respect for social convention, and the fact that Hagen couldn't have kept the vassals on his side if he had been seen to violate the blood-brotherhood taboo. It seems to me that Hagen is very careful to spin his ambitions and actions throughout. As far as The Perfect Wagnerite is concerned, despite having chosen it for my nom-de-plume (something about being a Wagnerian with strong left leanings), I have recently revisited it and found it rather unconvincing - especially the argument about how the Ring descends into melodrama towards the end. It seems to me that the unfolding of the final decline of the old order is both dramatically wonderfully assured and the key to what the Ring is about. Ian - I haven't read Adorno's Versuch uber Wagner; Adorno on Wagner is very much on the to-do list when time permits, especially since his writing on the authoritarian personality had a very considerable impact on me when encountered some years ago and seems crucial to an understanding of both the Ring and society as a whole. |
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At every one of these [classical] concerts in England you will find rows of weary people who are there, not because they really like classical music, but because they think they ought to like it. (Shaw, Don Juan in Hell)
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #50 on: 22:06:39, 10-07-2007 » |
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Ian - I haven't read Adorno's Versuch uber Wagner; Adorno on Wagner is very much on the to-do list when time permits, especially since his writing on the authoritarian personality had a very considerable impact on me when encountered some years ago and seems crucial to an understanding of both the Ring and society as a whole. I'll be extremely interested to know what you make of it when you do - incidentally, do you know Dahlhaus's stuff on Wagner, also? One thing I would like to know more about is Wagner's relationship to Bakunin and his ideas - I only know the very basics. Anyone got any suggestions of reading matter on that subject? The correspondence between Wagner and Liszt, after the former went into exile following the events of 1848, is extremely interesting - one thing Wagner repeatedly talks about is his wish to have an Erard piano! Ian (a one time huge Wagner-lover, nowadays that love is much more in perspective and measured, but still fascinated by Wagner both as composer and cultural figure) |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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martle
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« Reply #51 on: 22:13:04, 10-07-2007 » |
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This is turning into a really fascinating discussion, and I always feel just out of the loop on Wagner - a case for transfer to a new thread?
martle (who is still besotted by the Ring, doesn't pretend to understand its intracacies, but hey , only even discovered it at the age of 35)
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Green. Always green.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #52 on: 22:59:11, 10-07-2007 » |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #53 on: 07:06:24, 11-07-2007 » |
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Sublime indeed - might just stick it on the MP3 player for today's commute  |
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At every one of these [classical] concerts in England you will find rows of weary people who are there, not because they really like classical music, but because they think they ought to like it. (Shaw, Don Juan in Hell)
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increpatio
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« Reply #54 on: 13:26:05, 11-07-2007 » |
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The correspondence between Wagner and Liszt, after the former went into exile following the events of 1848, is extremely interesting - one thing Wagner repeatedly talks about is his wish to have an Erard piano!
Oh, hmm. I had always been under the impression that Wagner's correspondence with Liszt could be rather painful to read (mainly on the basis of that 3 Vol bio of Liszt). Might give them a read then, when I've finished all the book of letters by Dylan Thomas that's been lying under my bed for the past several months. |
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