Reiner Torheit
|
|
« Reply #30 on: 12:45:37, 12-01-2008 » |
|
It is worth pressing-on with MANON, Swan-Knight! Try, if you can, to put the Puccini version of the opera from your mind - Massenet's after something rather different from the story, and I think he succeeds with it, too Puccini's heroine is a weak-willed girl who falls into her fate through force of circumstances. Massenet's Manon is a capricious conniving minx who brings disaster to all in her wake... quite a different story, in fact Spoiler Warning - the end is also very different. By the way, does anyone know the Auber opera MANON LESCAUT? I didn't realise until recently that there was yet a third opera on this story. (There was even a fourth composer involved with MANON operas - Leoncavallo rewrote (as a favour to Puccini) the disastrous libretto Puccini had been sent by Praga, cutting reams of off-topic drivel and shaping the in-your-face shocker that Puccini then produced... although Puccini then gave Leoncavallo's version to Illica for beautifying, and Illica gets the libretto-credit usually).
|
|
« Last Edit: 12:48:04, 12-01-2008 by Reiner Torheit »
|
Logged
|
"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House" - Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
|
|
|
Ruth Elleson
|
|
« Reply #31 on: 13:05:15, 12-01-2008 » |
|
(There was even a fourth composer involved with MANON operas - Leoncavallo rewrote (as a favour to Puccini) the disastrous libretto Puccini had been sent by Praga, cutting reams of off-topic drivel and shaping the in-your-face shocker that Puccini then produced... although Puccini then gave Leoncavallo's version to Illica for beautifying, and Illica gets the libretto-credit usually).
"As a favour to Puccini..." Given the timeline of Puccini's operas, I see that's BEFORE Puccini nicked the idea for an opera after Murger's "Scenes de la vie de Boheme" off Leoncavallo and beat him to the finishing post with a smash-hit work? I am aware of Auber's Manon Lescaut but haven't heard it.
|
|
|
Logged
|
Oft hat ein Seufzer, deiner Harf' entflossen, Ein süßer, heiliger Akkord von dir Den Himmel beßrer Zeiten mir erschlossen, Du holde Kunst, ich danke dir dafür!
|
|
|
Reiner Torheit
|
|
« Reply #32 on: 13:25:09, 12-01-2008 » |
|
"As a favour to Puccini..." Given the timeline of Puccini's operas, I see that's BEFORE Puccini nicked the idea for an opera after Murger's "Scenes de la vie de Boheme" off Leoncavallo and beat him to the finishing post with a smash-hit work? My main intention with those parentheses was to make clear that Leoncavallo had no (known) intention of setting the Manon story himself However, Leoncavallo effectively acted as the dramaturg on the piece, and a good part of its success was due to his "cinematic" foreshortening of Praga's longwinded libretto Out of interest, music apart - what do you think of the relative librettos of the two BOHEMES? I see Puccini backsliding on his verismo principles in the interests of making the "sentimentality" buck? Leoncavallo's is more stark, I think? If only his music had been, ehem, a bit better
|
|
|
Logged
|
"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House" - Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
|
|
|
Soundwave
|
|
« Reply #33 on: 15:17:01, 12-01-2008 » |
|
Ho Il Grande I. Many thanks for the Cleopatra information. (I see the Caballe version has her daughter, Montserrat Marti in it.) I know she was still singing then (2002/2004) but have had no reports of how she sounded. Investigation is called for. Cheers S'wave.
|
|
|
Logged
|
Ho! I may be old yet I am still lusty
|
|
|
Il Grande Inquisitor
|
|
« Reply #34 on: 15:38:06, 12-01-2008 » |
|
Ho! Soundwave, I investigated the Caballé recording in excerpts on iTunes. As I feared, not good...
|
|
|
Logged
|
Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency
|
|
|
Antheil
|
|
« Reply #35 on: 15:52:55, 12-01-2008 » |
|
Hola IGI! Today I listened to the Patrick Fournillier Cleopatre, I just think it is wonderful.
I know she has only recorded the one aria from it, but Magdelena Kozena, J'ai verse le poison is fantastic, I think.
|
|
|
Logged
|
Reality, sa molesworth 2, is so sordid it makes me shudder
|
|
|
Il Grande Inquisitor
|
|
« Reply #36 on: 16:02:15, 12-01-2008 » |
|
Yes, I downloaded that aria from Kozena's French Opera album and she's fantastic...better than Fleming on her 'Age of the Diva' disc.
|
|
|
Logged
|
Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency
|
|
|
Antheil
|
|
« Reply #37 on: 16:09:57, 12-01-2008 » |
|
totally agree IGI, hairs on the back of the neck stuff. I got it on Gramophone's Awards 2003
|
|
|
Logged
|
Reality, sa molesworth 2, is so sordid it makes me shudder
|
|
|
Ruth Elleson
|
|
« Reply #38 on: 19:26:25, 12-01-2008 » |
|
This is quite drastically off-topic, so if we wish to discuss this much further, I suggest we take it onto a new thread. Out of interest, music apart - what do you think of the relative librettos of the two BOHEMES? I see Puccini backsliding on his verismo principles in the interests of making the "sentimentality" buck? Leoncavallo's is more stark, I think? If only his music had been, ehem, a bit better Leoncavallo's is certainly stark, and much truer to the book. Leoncavallo set the scenes and characters as they are; Puccini used the core characters from Murger's book but took much of the plot from a single chapter of the book, which is a charming little vignette of a tearjerker which concerns a different set of lovers entirely. Also from this chapter, Puccini grafts the personality and nature of pathetic little Francine onto Murger's much feistier and less sympathetic Mimi. Leoncavallo's feels a lot more episodic, like the book, and its biggest weakness is dramatic structure. The first two acts are a charming and pretty inconsequential romantic comedy, and the last two, a full-on verismo tragedy. There's absolutely no sense of how the characters get from one to the other. As for the music, I don't think Leoncavallo's is bad, it's just inconsistent. However, a friend who has sung in the chorus for it complained of the unusually dense orchestral textures. Neither composer set Murger's devastating ending faithfully - it wouldn't have made good stage drama - but Leoncavallo comes by far the closest.
|
|
|
Logged
|
Oft hat ein Seufzer, deiner Harf' entflossen, Ein süßer, heiliger Akkord von dir Den Himmel beßrer Zeiten mir erschlossen, Du holde Kunst, ich danke dir dafür!
|
|
|
ernani
|
|
« Reply #39 on: 15:23:01, 14-01-2008 » |
|
Oddly enough, my impression of Massenet is exactly as described by ernani in his introductory post! Possibly unfair, as I'm only familiar with Werther (have a recording of Manon, which I've yet to listen to). A friend of mine is a bit of a Massenet fan and he's played me a few of the less popular works, none of which have really impinged on me as being more than pleasant and mildly diverting. I always picture Massenet as a good, professional composer, who turned out effective stage works that met the needs of the time he lived in (a bit like a Saint-Saens of the opera house), but never really managed anything truly outstanding. Wonder if listening to Manon will change my mind? SK, you might enjoy Esclarmonde. It's commonly referred to as Massenet's most Wagnerian opera and it contains clear echoes of Tannhauser, Lohengrin, Tristan and Parsifal. Act Two in particular strikes me as a very beautiful response to Act Two of Wagner's Parsifal. It is basically an extended love duet where Escarlmonde (a Kundry-like figure with magical powers) seduces Roland, and it contains some wonderful music with some gorgeous harmonic shifts. I've got the Sutherland/Aragall recording on Decca. The beat in Sutherland's voice by this stage in her career is a bit distracting at times, but it's a very fine recording IMHO.
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
ernani
|
|
« Reply #40 on: 15:26:56, 14-01-2008 » |
|
Ho! Friend Ernani mentions that there is an idea, he does not agree with, that Massenet is perhaps thought of as a frothy lightweight. I agree with Ernani and you only need to know "Esclarmonde", "Herodiade" and, particularly the last twenty minutes of "El Cid" to realise that he was perfectly capable of writing strongly dramatic music when it was required. Although, personally, I can't stand "Werther" or "Manon" I do like "Cendrillon". One Massenet opera I would like to encounter is "Cleopatra". Has anybody here seen or heard it?
Regarding Gounod's "Mireille", mentioned by Reiner, I had Vincent in my repertoire early on and grew to appreciate "Mireille" far more than "Faust". The latter always seemed a little "cobwebbed" to me.
Reiner also mentions "Robert le Diable" and brings to mind a faint (hopefully correct) memory that McCracken had it in his repertoire along with "Le Prophete".
Cheers
Ho Soundwave! I think there is a recording of McCracken and Horne in Le Prophete , although I'm not sure... I always imagine that these operas would need a Thill or Vezzani to do them justice. Not sure who'd come close today - Ben Heppner, or perhaps Roberto Alagna on a good day?
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Soundwave
|
|
« Reply #41 on: 19:38:43, 14-01-2008 » |
|
Ho Ernani. I have, on an old tape, Act 3 Finale of Le Prophete with McCracken and du Plessis, but that is all. I suppose that it could have been Horne in that performance. Sadly, I find most Meyerbeer rather "curate's eggy". I say, sadly, because I still have the famous Huguenot duet with Wittrisch and Teschemacher that caused something of a sensation in my very young days. Cheers
|
|
|
Logged
|
Ho! I may be old yet I am still lusty
|
|
|
Il Grande Inquisitor
|
|
« Reply #42 on: 19:53:53, 14-01-2008 » |
|
The CBS recording of Le Prophete features James McCracken, Renata Scotto, Marilyn Horne and Jules Bastin, with the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Henry Lewis. I picked up a copy on eBay last year and it's an enjoyable piece. I think it would be good to have some new studio recordings of Meyerbeer's operas, especially ones like L'Africaine, Robert le Diable or even Les Huguenots (although there is the Decca recording of the latter available in some places). Opera Rara are great at recording the unknown Meyerbeer...I just wish they'd turn their attention to some of his greater works.
|
|
« Last Edit: 22:44:51, 14-01-2008 by Il Grande Inquisitor »
|
Logged
|
Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency
|
|
|
roslynmuse
|
|
« Reply #43 on: 22:45:01, 14-01-2008 » |
|
There's an excellent Erato set of Les Huguenots too - live recording, with some stunning orchestral playing and vocal pyrotechnics!
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Antheil
|
|
« Reply #44 on: 23:00:00, 14-01-2008 » |
|
Anyone know Le Viege? Thought I might give it a whirl
|
|
|
Logged
|
Reality, sa molesworth 2, is so sordid it makes me shudder
|
|
|
|