The Radio 3 Boards Forum from myforum365.com
09:19:49, 02-12-2008 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Whilst we happily welcome all genuine applications to our forum, there may be times when we need to suspend registration temporarily, for example when suffering attacks of spam.
 If you want to join us but find that the temporary suspension has been activated, please try again later.
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5
  Print  
Author Topic: Baroque Opera  (Read 1161 times)
JeanHartrick
*
Posts: 41


« Reply #15 on: 17:24:33, 25-10-2008 »

It looks as if I'm going to be on my own in beating the drum for Handel  Grin
Not at all!

But I'd rather have Andreas Scholl than Janet Baker.
Logged
Kittybriton
*****
Gender: Female
Posts: 2690


Thank you for the music ...


WWW
« Reply #16 on: 18:15:50, 25-10-2008 »

Not having been particularly enthusiastic for the later baroque crowd, I can't really offer much in the way of insight as far as Mr.Handel goes, but he did write good, hummable tunes. (Actually, quite good for all kinds of re-use).

Antheil: I hope you will let us know more about Les Indes Galantes. I have a dim recollection (well, quite a lot really) that it was largely a pro-French, the Injuns are on our side, let's go stuff the British with their own bangers, kind of drama with some wonderfully yumpty-tumpty dances by Mr.Rameau.
Logged

Click me ->About me
or me ->my handmade store
No, I'm not a complete idiot. I'm only a halfwit. In fact I'm actually a catfish.
Don Basilio
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 2682


Era solo un mio sospetto


« Reply #17 on: 18:43:18, 25-10-2008 »

I think that opera pre-Gluck is far more stylised than earlier stuff (although I believe the very earliest started out to set poetry in the manner of Greek tragedy.)

You have to get your head round the stylization, and then it makes sense.  There is never the risk you have with later operas that O-this-is-very-silly-real-people-don't-carry-on-like-that.  And often the characters are hardly from a sociological accurate milieu, to put it mildly.

And that is why they can seem camp to us - the style and the content don't match in the way that romantics and post-romantics expect.

Mind you, Calisto has more than its fair share of gender bending, what with Janet Baker seducing Ilena Cortubas and a Linfea and Satirino both drag roles.

(Male to female drag crops up far more in at least early baroque opera than later.)

I keep meaning to get round to Les Indes Galantes.
Logged

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
martle
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 6685



« Reply #18 on: 18:48:38, 25-10-2008 »

with some wonderfully yumpty-tumpty dances by Mr.Rameau.

Indeed, kitty. Like the magnificent closing number...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_nUt66IvIY

Don, you're so right about camp/stylisation. As always.   Cheesy
Logged

Green. Always green.
Don Basilio
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 2682


Era solo un mio sospetto


« Reply #19 on: 21:51:27, 25-10-2008 »

Somewhere here is hh's theory that opera is always a failure.

Because when push comes to shove, either people are good actors, or good singers, but rarely both.

I believe opera started out high-mindedly to produce the most elevated poetry set in the most elevated manner, viz set to music, but pretty soon Joe Public (or Giovanna Publica) made it obvious that what he or she wanted were jolly good tunes and  striking music.

It will always be a contest between words and music, but at the end of the day I reckon that the music wins.  The most elevated words with boring music is a comparative waste of time, whereas unashamed tosh with toons will always be at least fun.  And to an extraordinary extent there are a whole range of works which manage to be both musically and dramatically compelling
Logged

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
Turfan Fragment
*****
Posts: 1330


Formerly known as Chafing Dish


« Reply #20 on: 21:54:52, 25-10-2008 »

tosh with toons
Logged

SH
***
Posts: 101



« Reply #21 on: 22:15:31, 25-10-2008 »

And that is why they can seem camp to us - the style and the content don't match in the way that romantics and post-romantics expect.

Or: they always seem camp because that's the way they're always done?

It seems to be the reflex (and the reflex in describing baroque opera). But people cope/live with all manner of dislocations of style/content & don't necessarily think that camp is the only way to represent them.

It just seems lazy to me (just as it would to reduce Romanticism to a series of TV adaptation mannerisms).

Oh well.



Logged
martle
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 6685



« Reply #22 on: 22:46:21, 25-10-2008 »

Or: they always seem camp because that's the way they're always done?

Yes, that's true - or seems to be these days, SH. Why are they almost always done that way? Is it the only way of mediating between distant aesthetics and today's demands for 'realistic' drama? Interesting thought. They certainly lend themselves to campification, but that's only because the modus operandi of the forms employed seem so remote, isn't it?  - so some kind of objectifying process is deemed necessary (although isn't, I think).
Logged

Green. Always green.
Antheil
*****
Gender: Female
Posts: 3206



« Reply #23 on: 00:43:37, 26-10-2008 »

Oh Dear, I feel I should not have used the word "camp" I think I should have said "stylelised" (only I think I have spelt it wrong) but as I cannot even spell laverbread or Caerdydd what's new? <wry grin emoticom>

Anyway, I think I have successfully recorded La Calisto tonight, to compare with my copy, did anyone hear the broadcast?  Any thoughts?  Don B?

Next week I will get my Rameau (looking forward to that, love unknown, to me, composers) and Dido.  It is a funny thing how tastes change.  Today, when the cd player was on, has been a totally Purcell day,  I have to go along with the tosh with toons theory I think.
Logged

Reality, sa molesworth 2, is so sordid it makes me shudder
Robert Dahm
***
Posts: 197


« Reply #24 on: 03:53:38, 26-10-2008 »

Agree wholeheartedly with everybody's recommendations for Rameau. Particularly Les Boréades and Les Indes Galantes. In terms of French Baroque opera, can I also put in recommendations for Marais' Sémélé (not quite as good as the same composer's Alcyone, but at least it is readily available in a rather snazzy newish recording) and Leclair's Scylla et Glaucus.

I have a love/hate relationship with Handel operas. I have all the time in the world for Rodelinda, Giulio Cesare and Orlando, but others only tend to get the job done for me in bits and pieces (ie: big showstopper numbers, but endless boring recitative or second-rate arias). Vivaldi is a composer I basically don't get along with at all, so can't really suggest anything there.

Graun's Cleopatra e Cesare is pretty amazing, but I haven't really heard any of his other work.

I've had sitting in my Amazon basket for a while the Arminio of Biber. Is anybody able to recommend or otherwise?
Logged
Turfan Fragment
*****
Posts: 1330


Formerly known as Chafing Dish


« Reply #25 on: 04:22:33, 26-10-2008 »

Ooh yes -- my Biberdar just went off.

Arminio is beautiful, especially fond of the gratuitous recorder quartet called in for just one number to represent a send-up of military music.
Logged

SH
***
Posts: 101



« Reply #26 on: 08:52:25, 26-10-2008 »

Yes, that's true - or seems to be these days, SH. Why are they almost always done that way? Is it the only way of mediating between distant aesthetics and today's demands for 'realistic' drama? Interesting thought. They certainly lend themselves to campification, but that's only because the modus operandi of the forms employed seem so remote, isn't it?  - so some kind of objectifying process is deemed necessary (although isn't, I think).

I agree there are all sorts of 'intermediate' mediations Smiley Although in other art forms (cinema, say) people assimilate all sorts of artifice without blinking (perhaps because it seems natural). I suppose the sense of oddness is multiplied by the fact that opera can - if looked at in a certain way ahem - seem to inhabit the edge of a kind of hysteria itself edging the camp (has anyone ever cast the Valkyries as transvestites?)

And, clearly, there is a distance already there - in the texts of baroque operas, in the relation of the texts to music, spectacle. I suppose what makes that stylised and witty in a various way, rather than the universal arch that seems to stand in for that now, is a kind of intimacy with classical myth or ancient 'history' that we don't have.

That's one of the things, I think, that gives Pope so much force: the allusions are granted value, loved, they have the significance of internalised, memorised texts. They stand for & against something, indeed. That intimacy gets weakened in the C18. It does with poetic invocation, for example. In a different textual context, Samuel Johnson thinks the invocations in Paradise Lost are "machinery." For Milton they clearly aren't, and they must not to be. (The haunting fear that they must not be but are is a part of the poem's crisis, too. Blake understood this). There needs to be a ground that is more than a tissue of text.

As it were Undecided

I suppose the other point is that we attend to baroque opera in a way that's very different from the way the - again different - audiences for the various baroque operas attended to them. Perhaps the key is stylisation not camp. Attempting to find equivalents rather than substitutes for an 'original' aesthetic.

(Monteverdi seems to me much less problematic than, say, Rameau. You could strip Monteverdi down & get something immediate, vivid. I could imagine intimate as opposed to sniggering takes on Cavalli, too. Handel is much more 'operatic' I'd guess - the succession of aria/recitative obviously creates difficulties now of achieving variety & keeping attention. But again a bit of thinking, as opposed to auto-pilot. In Rameau I guess a version of spectacle is required. Preferrably - for me - not dancers pretending to do synchronised swimming in an orchard of paper streamers).

I admit, though, that I've not been in an opera house in years & the productions of baroque opera I went to then (ENO's Xerxes, especially) I loathed. So it's quite probable this is all out of Les Boréades. Hot air.

Bws,
« Last Edit: 08:55:21, 26-10-2008 by SH » Logged
martle
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 6685



« Reply #27 on: 08:58:04, 26-10-2008 »

So it's quite probable this is all out of Les Boréades. Hot air.

Not at all, SH. Thanks for that - really sharp stuff.  Smiley
Logged

Green. Always green.
SH
***
Posts: 101



« Reply #28 on: 09:02:53, 26-10-2008 »

So it's quite probable this is all out of Les Boréades. Hot air.

Not at all, SH. Thanks for that - really sharp stuff.  Smiley

I forgot about the clocks & got up early  Sad


Logged
oliver sudden
Admin/Moderator Group
*****
Posts: 6411



« Reply #29 on: 09:31:26, 26-10-2008 »

Great post, SH.

I wonder if the Baroque opera fans here might be persuaded to mention specific performances/recordings/productions etc when referring to the works? Only because here more than perhaps anywhere else in (classical) music there's such a huge difference between different versions that they might as well be different pieces...
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5
  Print  
 
Jump to: