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Author Topic: Baroque Opera  (Read 1161 times)
harmonyharmony
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« Reply #30 on: 09:52:17, 26-10-2008 »

The doctrine of the affections is key to understanding the music (and the poetry) of Baroque opera.
Each aria is expressing a single emotion (or different facets of that same emotion).
This derives from Ancient Greek theory so fits right in with the Florentine Camerata's ideas about Ancient Greece that led to Peri's Dafne and Euridice, and eventually Monteverdi's Orfeo, and thence modern opera.
The application of the doctrine creates stylised poetry and stylised music, and would have been understood as such.
If you have a production that is not 'in tune' with this approach, I'd hazard a guess that you're going to end up with something a bit wonky.

Later Baroque opera suffers a little from over-stylisation, perhaps sometimes to the extent of calcification. Virtuosity, not necessarily directly connected to the affect being expressed, begins to dominate the drama. It is easy for the drama to become secondary to the music (ironic, since the seconda pratica began with an emphasis on text over music, and the seconda pratica is regarded by most historians as the genesis of the Baroque period). Perhaps it is a victim of its own success. As opera became more popular, it moved out of the court and into the public theatre. In the public theatre, there were a greater proportion of audience members without the familiarity with poetic and musical theory, or with mythology (as SH has pointed out in his really very thought-provoking post), and therefore the emphasis almost has to move away from the aspects that were deeply important to early opera. When Gluck seeks to reinvent opera, he goes back to the Ancient Greeks in his attempt to make a more 'natural' theatre, but one could say that it's really John Gay's Beggar's Opera that defines the trajectory of Classical opera towards the end of the 18th century - an opera for the people. I suppose it's possible to say that English composers like Purcell had been tending towards that anyway with their rather approximate retellings of mythology (e.g. Dido and Aeneas) and relaxed attitudes towards theory and practice.

This is probably all a bit garbled.
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #31 on: 10:06:15, 26-10-2008 »

Mind you, Calisto has more than its fair share of gender bending, what with Janet Baker seducing Ilena Cortubas and a Linfea and Satirino both drag roles.

(Male to female drag crops up far more in at least early baroque opera than later.)

I've been trying to find out just how many women would have been involved in performing on stage at this period, but I don't exactly have the source materials to hand to have a decent stab at it.
Certainly it seems that all the soprano roles in Monteverdi's Orfeo were taken by castrati (including Euridice, Prosperina, La Speranza, La Musica etc.).
Wikipedia suggests rather misleadingly that a part in Peri's Euridice were taken by Francesca Caccini, but reference to the Grove article cited seems to indicate that she was part of her father, Giulio Caccini's concerto (i.e. accompaniment or pit-band), and this would probably have been the part that she took in proceedings.
Can't find anything about La Calisto, but I'd be interested to hear if anyone knows what proscriptions were in place regarding women on the stage at this time.
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Antheil
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« Reply #32 on: 10:55:21, 26-10-2008 »

Thank you SH and hh for two very informative posts.

Can I second Ollie's request for recommended recordings from our Baroque experts?
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SH
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« Reply #33 on: 11:54:46, 26-10-2008 »

Thank you SH and hh for two very informative posts.

Can I second Ollie's request for recommended recordings from our Baroque experts?

Thirded Smiley Having said all that about productions of baroque opera, I've just picked up CDs here and there now & again which I thought might interest me.

For example, I have several René Jacobs recordings of Handel and of Scarlatti's (A) Griselda and Keiser's Croesus which I've enjoyed, but I'm certain that he takes all sorts of liberties that aren't just liberties in the spirit of the C18 (whatever that is) but just ... well, liberties & primarily opportunistic. Also a recording of an opera by Telemann (who I think wrote numerous operas that are lost: that 'comic' 1 acter being the exception) Orpheus, which like the Keiser is an extraordinary assemblage of styles, genres, but which I think is a Jacob's cut & paste job.

Sort of HIP Beecham Huh

I suppose it's possible to say that English composers like Purcell had been tending towards that anyway with their rather approximate retellings of mythology (e.g. Dido and Aeneas) and relaxed attitudes towards theory and practice.


That relaxedness is paralleled in C17 English drama, HH. The only serious attempt, I think, to ground theatre in theory in England in the C17 is Jonson's with his schemata of the humours & the annotations to Sejanus & Catiline. And they aren't very powerful models (for all the other qualities of the texts).

They do allow him to be sniffy about Shakespeare - and then everybody else up to the middle of the C18 or thereabouts. Shakespeare has had the last laugh on that one.

(Sadly, it's out of print: but if you can find a copy Alessandro Scarlatti's Griselda is, I think, lovely. At a tangent, Bruno Maderna fans [& I think he was in so many ways magical] conducted the opera's first modern performance. With Mirella Freni!


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Kittybriton
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« Reply #34 on: 12:07:50, 26-10-2008 »

I forgot about the clocks & got up early  Sad
Oh good. I'm not completely on me todd then.
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Kittybriton
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« Reply #35 on: 12:27:10, 26-10-2008 »

The only serious attempt, I think, to ground theatre in theory in England in the C17 is Jonson's with his schemata of the humours & the annotations to Sejanus & Catiline.
An ignoramus asks: is that a different text from "Sejanus, his fall"?
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SH
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« Reply #36 on: 13:22:21, 26-10-2008 »

It is, yes. (I can't find my edition of Jonson's plays. They are behind something which is in front of something else but what it is they are behind which is in front of what I do not know off-hand. My books & CDs are not well organised. Neither is their owner).

Jonson's annotations are to the 1st quarto. People said look at him, showing off, pretending plays are serious things & he has a classical education. He then defended the annotations & his classical education as returning tragedy to Senecan dignity. Whatever that would be when it was at home.

Sejanus, his fall got Jonson charged with treason in 1605 - and plot & probably gunpowder, too. So it all rather galloped beyond theory. Many years since I've read it.

I like Jonson's poems a lot. I can find my edition of those Smiley

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richard barrett
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« Reply #37 on: 16:15:06, 26-10-2008 »

Some recommendations (leaving aside DVDs):

Monteverdi: Orfeo (Gardiner or Cavina I think, I've heard most of them except Alessandrini)
Il ritorno di Ulisse (Harnoncourt probably)
Poppea (Jacobs or Harnoncourt)
Cavalli: La Calisto (Jacobs, though I can imagine it done better)
Lully: Alceste (Malgoire)
Charpentier: Médée (Christie's second recording)
Blow: Venus and Adonis (Pickett)
Rameau: Castor et Pollux, Les indes galantes, Zoroastre (Christie, though I hope there'll be a better Castor at some point; Harnoncourt's is quite good too)
Les Boréades (Gardiner, the only one on CD)

The DVD everyone should have, though it isn't an opera but a play with extensive musical divertissements, is this:



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Daniel
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« Reply #38 on: 17:10:30, 26-10-2008 »

.This is probably all a bit garbled.

Not at all!

And I also would like to thank hh and SH (you're not related are you?) for their fascinating thoughts. This from somebody who is sadly at the moment experiencing a what's-it-all-about detachment from baroque opera, I can't really seem to engage with it at all (the opposite is true of the non-operatic stuff), but reading through a thread like this certainly helps waft me back in the right direction.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #39 on: 17:20:25, 26-10-2008 »

Regarding René "Sir Tommy" Jacobs, his Monteverdi and Cavalli productions are indeed highly souped-up in instrumentation, in a way which doesn't as far as I know correspond to any performance practice at the time (though as Harnoncourt points out somewhere, performances in venues like the imperial court of Vienna, where at least some of this stuff is known to have been put on, wouldn't have had to stick to the skeletal intrumentation of the Venice opera of the time and therefore presumably didn't). Jacobs also fiddles around a bit with Keiser's Croesus, but much less so: I've heard two or three other recordings of Keiser's operas and they didn't sound so different from the way Jacobs does this music (one of them has an aria which appears to have been plagiarised from Glass's Akhnaten) - Keiser's instrumentation is quite colourful already.
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Kittybriton
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« Reply #40 on: 20:56:03, 26-10-2008 »

Some recommendations (leaving aside DVDs):

Monteverdi: Orfeo (Gardiner or Cavina I think, I've heard most of them except Alessandrini)

The DVD everyone should have, though it isn't an opera but a play with extensive musical divertissements, is this:





IIRC also has a rather fun Cérémonie des Turcs.
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #41 on: 11:49:20, 27-10-2008 »

I think tinners quoted someone as saying Die Meistersinger is the opera Brahms never wrote.

What is the opera that J S Bach never wrote?
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #42 on: 13:16:36, 27-10-2008 »

What is the opera that J S Bach never wrote?
I suppose it would have to be the Passions, except there the slippage is in the fact that they're not operas rather than the fact that he didn't write them which unless an awful lot of people are very mistaken indeed he did...  Roll Eyes
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SH
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« Reply #43 on: 13:24:56, 27-10-2008 »

I think tinners quoted someone as saying Die Meistersinger is the opera Brahms never wrote.

What is the opera that J S Bach never wrote?

I suppose if J S Bach had got the Hamburg job instead of Telemann he would have written operas?
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #44 on: 21:19:27, 27-10-2008 »

I have just listened again to Catherine Bott's introduction to the broadcast of La Calisto.

From her desciption of the production, I can see what SH means about unnecessary camp.  It may have worked but I could have found it rather irritating.

What I said was that baroque operas can seem camp to us.  And by camp, I didn't mean calling for outrageous productions, I meant the artificiality.

I must say that an awful lot of movies (including every musical I've ever seen) are pretty camp in my mind, and not necessarily the worse than that.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
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