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Author Topic: Vickers  (Read 492 times)
Swan_Knight
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« on: 14:07:24, 22-03-2007 »

I've recently been listening (for the umpteenth time) to his Tristan and Siegmund recordings (both with Karajan).

As always, I'm blown away by his intensity, his masculine timbre and (most important) his sheer identification with the characters.

I don't think either of these roles will ever be better sung!

Shame he's apparently such a **** in real life!  Angry
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Soundwave
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« Reply #1 on: 17:05:04, 22-03-2007 »

Ho Swan Knight.  Would you care to fill in the **** please?
Regards
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Swan_Knight
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« Reply #2 on: 17:38:39, 22-03-2007 »

Ho Swan Knight.  Would you care to fill in the **** please?
Regards

Vickers virtually refused to take direction from John Gielgud when he made his Covent Garden debut in 'The Trojans'.

He refused to reherase with Charles Mackerras.

He notoriously pulled out of a Covent Garden Tannhauser for extremely specious reasons (when the probability was he just couldn't cope with the demands of the role, but didn't have the face to admit this).

He is, by all accounts, an extreme right-wing religious zealot (refused to participate in a production of Weil's 'Mahagonny', because he deemed it 'communistic propaganda').

These details come from an otherwise admiring biography of Vickers.

Apparently, he got on very well with von Karajan, though.  Make of that what you will.  Roll Eyes
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #3 on: 17:54:57, 22-03-2007 »

Ho Swan Knight.  Would you care to fill in the **** please?
Regards

Vickers virtually refused to take direction from John Gielgud when he made his Covent Garden debut in 'The Trojans'.

He refused to reherase with Charles Mackerras.

He notoriously pulled out of a Covent Garden Tannhauser for extremely specious reasons (when the probability was he just couldn't cope with the demands of the role, but didn't have the face to admit this).

He is, by all accounts, an extreme right-wing religious zealot (refused to participate in a production of Weil's 'Mahagonny', because he deemed it 'communistic propaganda').

These details come from an otherwise admiring biography of Vickers.

Apparently, he got on very well with von Karajan, though.  Make of that what you will.  Roll Eyes

Might the antipathy of Britten towards Vickers have to do with other reasons than his singing, possibly, then?
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Swan_Knight
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« Reply #4 on: 18:12:55, 22-03-2007 »


[/quote]

Might the antipathy of Britten towards Vickers have to do with other reasons than his singing, possibly, then?
[/quote]

Never heard about that before, Ian.  Can you elaborate?
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #5 on: 18:15:23, 22-03-2007 »


Quote
Might the antipathy of Britten towards Vickers have to do with other reasons than his singing, possibly, then?

Never heard about that before, Ian.  Can you elaborate?

Pure speculation, I have no evidence for this (but haven't investigated it in any detail). Just, knowing of Britten's professed dislike of how Vickers sung Grimes, whether his opinions might have been swayed by disdain towards Vickers' character in other respects, such as those you mention? As well as, of course, the fact that Vickers rather self-professedly set himself up as a 'not Pears' interpretation?
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Soundwave
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« Reply #6 on: 20:45:29, 22-03-2007 »

Good evening Swan Knight.
Bearing in mind Vickers upbringing, I think that you should study the reasoning in Jeannie Williams book.  Part of a crit of it reads   "None of this analysis is presented in Williams’ treatment of the Tannhäuser scandal. She appears tone deaf to Vickers’ Christianity. The Tannhäuser incident is the most glaring example of this, but not the only one. Elsewhere in the book, Williams attributes Vickers’ antipathy toward homosexuality—something that needs no explanation for an orthodox Christian—to potentially unaddressed issues in his own psychology. Even the fact that Henrietta’s bridal bouquet included a small Bible Williams mentions as if it were some bizarre tribal practice from a lost continent.

And this is what I mean by this book exemplifying the increasing exoticism of Christianity to the chatty class."     Why should you state, without actual knowledge, that his reasons for not singing Tannhauser were "specious".  The suggestion that the role was beyond him was ludicrous.

The fact that Vickers Christianity could account for Vickers antipathy to homosexuality - does that make him a **** ? (You still haven't come up with what that means).  This, of course, influenced Britten along with Vickers intention of creating a different character to Pears?  I assume that if he had been a left wing atheist zealot he would be o.k.  Perhaps you should come up with absolute proof of the things you say.   Incidentally, the last time the McKerras story came up (I think it may have been you) the "scandal" was that Vickers arrived not knowing this part.  This about a man well known for knowing everybodys' parts - not just his own.   

Regards
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richard barrett
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« Reply #7 on: 21:14:17, 22-03-2007 »

Quote
The fact that Vickers' Christianity could account for Vickers antipathy to homosexuality - does that make him a **** ?
I think it does, actually - I would say there's one star too few and the word should be "bigot". Wonderful singer though. Also: he was too much of a christian to sing Tannhäuser but not to sing Siegmund? This I find strange.
« Last Edit: 21:19:21, 22-03-2007 by richard barrett » Logged
perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #8 on: 21:21:32, 22-03-2007 »

Quote
The fact that Vickers' Christianity could account for Vickers antipathy to homosexuality - does that make him a **** ?
I think it does, actually - I would say there's one star too few and the word should be "bigot". Wonderful singer though. Also: he was too much of a christian to sing Tannhäuser but not to sing Siegmund? This I find strange.

I don't have the facts to hand, but wasn't the story that he objected to the production rather than the role? 
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #9 on: 21:32:04, 22-03-2007 »

Good evening Swan Knight.
Bearing in mind Vickers upbringing, I think that you should study the reasoning in Jeannie Williams book.  Part of a crit of it reads   "None of this analysis is presented in Williams’ treatment of the Tannhäuser scandal. She appears tone deaf to Vickers’ Christianity. The Tannhäuser incident is the most glaring example of this, but not the only one. Elsewhere in the book, Williams attributes Vickers’ antipathy toward homosexuality—something that needs no explanation for an orthodox Christian—to potentially unaddressed issues in his own psychology. Even the fact that Henrietta’s bridal bouquet included a small Bible Williams mentions as if it were some bizarre tribal practice from a lost continent.

And this is what I mean by this book exemplifying the increasing exoticism of Christianity to the chatty class."     Why should you state, without actual knowledge, that his reasons for not singing Tannhauser were "specious".  The suggestion that the role was beyond him was ludicrous.

The fact that Vickers Christianity could account for Vickers antipathy to homosexuality - does that make him a **** ? (You still haven't come up with what that means).  This, of course, influenced Britten along with Vickers intention of creating a different character to Pears?  I assume that if he had been a left wing atheist zealot he would be o.k.  Perhaps you should come up with absolute proof of the things you say.   Incidentally, the last time the McKerras story came up (I think it may have been you) the "scandal" was that Vickers arrived not knowing this part.  This about a man well known for knowing everybodys' parts - not just his own.   

Regards

Surely Christianity is a 'broad church' in the most literal sense of the term?! Holding up someone's 'Christianity' as a motivation for certain bigoted attitudes requires a lot of nuance, to do with which manifestation/interpretation of Christianity is at stake, in this case which was adhered to by Vickers? What exactly is an 'orthodox Christian' in the sense that the term is used in the quotation above (presumably not someone belonging to one of the Eastern Orthodox Churches)? I'm not religious at all, but am also by no means convinced that, as some types of liberals would have it (I'm not saying anyone in this thread necessarily is saying this) atheists are necessarily more 'tolerant' than Christians (or members of other religions), nor that a lot of Christian teachings are worth jettisoning in a secular context.

An article that may be of interest in this context:

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n20/eagl01_.html
« Last Edit: 21:37:44, 22-03-2007 by Ian Pace » Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
MabelJane
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« Reply #10 on: 21:48:14, 22-03-2007 »

Have you heard this infamous outburst from him?
http://www.handelmania.com/dristan.mp3
Apparently it didn't make any difference, they carried on coughing. Angry

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Merely corroborative detail, intended to give artistic verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative.
tonybob
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« Reply #11 on: 21:50:04, 22-03-2007 »

i think that outburst really adds to the mood of the piece...
« Last Edit: 21:51:48, 22-03-2007 by tonybob » Logged

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Swan_Knight
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« Reply #12 on: 22:10:43, 22-03-2007 »

Good evening Swan Knight.
Bearing in mind Vickers upbringing, I think that you should study the reasoning in Jeannie Williams book.  Part of a crit of it reads   "None of this analysis is presented in Williams’ treatment of the Tannhäuser scandal. She appears tone deaf to Vickers’ Christianity. The Tannhäuser incident is the most glaring example of this, but not the only one. Elsewhere in the book, Williams attributes Vickers’ antipathy toward homosexuality—something that needs no explanation for an orthodox Christian—to potentially unaddressed issues in his own psychology. Even the fact that Henrietta’s bridal bouquet included a small Bible Williams mentions as if it were some bizarre tribal practice from a lost continent.

And this is what I mean by this book exemplifying the increasing exoticism of Christianity to the chatty class."     Why should you state, without actual knowledge, that his reasons for not singing Tannhauser were "specious".  The suggestion that the role was beyond him was ludicrous.

The fact that Vickers Christianity could account for Vickers antipathy to homosexuality - does that make him a **** ? (You still haven't come up with what that means).  This, of course, influenced Britten along with Vickers intention of creating a different character to Pears?  I assume that if he had been a left wing atheist zealot he would be o.k.  Perhaps you should come up with absolute proof of the things you say.   Incidentally, the last time the McKerras story came up (I think it may have been you) the "scandal" was that Vickers arrived not knowing this part.  This about a man well known for knowing everybodys' parts - not just his own.   

Regards

Hi, Soundwave

Walter Legge made the point that Vickers' official reason for pulling out of Tannhauser was ludicrous - given that other roles in his repertoire included the incestuous Siegmund and the downright evil Nerone. 

However, the point you make about the 'exoticism' of Christianity to a secular audience is a very valid and interesting one - and I apologise if my initial posting sounded like I was spoiling for a fight. 

I do find Vickers, from what I've read/seen of him, to be a somewhat unattractive personality - a strong personality, for sure, but somewhat dogmatic and pretentious.

I came across the Mackerras anecdote in an article about C.M some years ago - it was related from C.M.'s point of view.  And I believe Vickers took umbrage at Solti when the latter insisted on whilsting the 'Wintersturme...' to him in rehearsal.
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Soundwave
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« Reply #13 on: 09:56:05, 23-03-2007 »

Morning Swan Knight.  Vickers is a complicated person with strong convictions instilled in him in his childhood amongst the farming community in Prince Albert.  He had, during his performing days, the reputation of being difficult.  In defence, I think it’s only fair to say that his absolute commitment to what he was doing was, perhaps, misunderstood by some people.  The result of his attitudes created the intense absorption in his roles that led to the appreciation of his performances.  Singers quite often object to parts of productions that don't coincide with their personal beliefs or ideas but, as they don't usually mention religion, little or nothing is publicised.   In sport, nobody criticised Jonathan Edwards for refusing to perform on a Sunday and I am aware of two Jewish opera singers who did not perform on the Sabbath.   
Cheers
p.s.  I'm away for a week or so from this evening so you may get nothing further from me for a while.
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ernani
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« Reply #14 on: 17:19:34, 23-03-2007 »

Vickers is certainly a probing and intelligent interpreter and I enjoy his Tristan, Grimes, Don Carlo and Don Jose especially (despite dodgy French in the latter). However, I have always found him to be vocally flawed, especially at the top of the stave. Listen to his Enee and the horrible lunge at the top C in 'Inutiles regrets!' or his Otello under Karajan, where the 'Esultate' almost comes off the rails altogether. 
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