oliver sudden
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« Reply #75 on: 19:04:22, 11-09-2008 » |
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Well M Messiaen was after all born in 1908 was not he?
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #76 on: 19:05:37, 11-09-2008 » |
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and a vast range of percussive instruments including ... ondes Martenot Er... oh never mind. I suppose it does have a gong in it.
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #77 on: 19:43:49, 11-09-2008 » |
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What Messiaen preaches, however, is that there is only one truth, one way to redemption, the road to Rome. Take it, or be damned. Do you know I think I missed that bit of the libretto...
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'is this all we can do?' anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965) http://www.myspace.com/itensemble
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #78 on: 19:51:43, 11-09-2008 » |
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For those who think criticism is a cushy number, this is where the pain kicks in. Writing about art you love and admire is a joy for life. Trying to make sense of a fug of stale incense is no way to start the day. Still, it has to be done and there’s no easy way out. He seems to miss the obvious conclusion to be drawn from that second sentence, no?...
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...trj...
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« Reply #79 on: 10:32:43, 12-09-2008 » |
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One curious thing I noticed on Sunday was that the audience, sparse though it was, was overwhelmingly male. On the front row, for example, I counted only two women among the 20+ men, and looking around the Arena and the seating areas of the Hall, this ratio was seemingly quite consistent. The Arena is normally quite male-dominated anyway (rather like these forums) but it's not usually any more extreme a ratio than 3:2 (at a guess). Would anybody like to speculate on why this was? The overwhelmingly male cast? The subject matter? The "geek" appeal of the piece in question ( )? I could draw a parallel with Parsifal which, as I have remarked in the past, seems similarly to strike more of a chord with men than women, attracting male-weighted audiences, while other entirely or largely "male" operas ( Billy Budd, Meistersinger) don't seem to skew the audience as radically. Thoughts please... That's an intriguing observation, Ruth. Not something I'd thought about before, but then I'm a boy. I will say that my own initiation into Messiaen (which I don't think is entirely unique) was quite 'male', in that it involved loud organ music, the thrilling sound of a 32-foot reed, lots of drooling over how many notes there were on a page and geeking out over modes of limited transposition. I think there's plenty in Messiaen that tickles the parts of the generally male brain that enjoys motorsport.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #80 on: 10:46:09, 12-09-2008 » |
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I've never really thought of Messiaen as having "geek appeal", but now this has been mentioned... maybe it's a question of the all-pervasive Catholicism in Messiaen, who (to a greater extent than any other recent composer I can think of) submitted himself and his music entirely to its doctrines, many of which are somewhat mediaeval in their attitude to women. Neither SFA or Parsifal contains any character which is recognisable or credible as a female human being, and this is probably just one symptom of something more fundamental to both works.
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #81 on: 11:38:23, 26-09-2008 » |
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It sounds like Ruth's on to something.
However, I wouldn't have thought of Messaian as remotely macho, in the way Wagner, for example, might be.
A standard criticism of Catholicism in C19 England was that it was unmanly. I have a suspicion that the suppression of women in official Catholic teaching might be a feeble attempt to save male face in the light of the overwhelming power of Mama in the Mediterranean home.
Messaien's Catholicism as far as I can tell, was of an intellectual, French style. I suppose you could argue that appeal to intellect rather than the senses is stereotypically male.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven. A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
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time_is_now
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« Reply #82 on: 12:05:29, 26-09-2008 » |
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I think Messiaen was fairly interested in the sensual, though, as an area of both of worldly and of Catholic experience.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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Turfan Fragment
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« Reply #83 on: 07:19:25, 28-09-2008 » |
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Messiaen was himself male.
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #84 on: 14:38:57, 28-09-2008 » |
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I met someone today who remembers singing in the choir for the London premiere of St Francois on the South Bank.
I went to a church I used to go to, and knelt down after communion, but when I heard a soloist start to sing, I sat up.
I knew her of old, and went up to her and explained the last time I listened to music kneeling was in the gallery of the RAH for the Turangalila Symphony.
She said she remembered singing under Messaien. The score took eight big volumes, of which the choir needed five. It was very wonderful.
I ran past her the Ellison thesis that Messaien is a blokeish composer, and she was not convinced.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven. A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #85 on: 12:05:50, 29-09-2008 » |
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I'm always a bit suspicious of any gender division in the appeal of a certain kind of music. Obviously if the statistics support it, then more men than women appreciate Messiaen's music, but does this actually mean anything? My mum usually uses a study in her stats classes, which shows a strong positive correlation between stork nests on chimneys and babies born to that household, in order to demonstrate that although there may be an incidental link, it isn't necessarily the obvious one for which you are looking. Statistics are whores, basically.
Saint François has no human female cast members for a simple reason (IMO). Messiaen reduces the drama to a limited number of scenes which operate like stained glass windows. This means (IMO) that the scenes have to be reduced down as well, removing characters which don't directly progress the plot etc. and prove to be distractions from the central message of the window (I know that not all stained glass follows this pattern, but busy windows depicting the Tower of Babel or the casting out of the money lenders from the temple, are wonderful (and deliberate) demonstrations of what happens when you have many characters in a window). I think that this is what Messiaen does. How then do you include a female character? I believe that (for example) introducing St Clare to the opera would unbalance it and distract from the central theme of the opera, which leads towards St François's stigmata and eventual transfiguration. Each scene moves him closer to this end.
There are certainly arguments which could be made that suggest that the choice of story for the opera, and the focus that Messiaen chose reflect his male-oriented thinking, but I am certainly not interested in making them. He claimed that he wasn't a theologian, but merely served God. When I read interviews with him, I feel that his acceptance of the doctrines of the church tends towards acceptance rather than critical thinking (you could see that as coming down on the Bernard of Clairvaux side of the argument rather than the Abelard side).
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'is this all we can do?' anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965) http://www.myspace.com/itensemble
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time_is_now
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« Reply #86 on: 13:00:11, 29-09-2008 » |
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Obviously if the statistics support it, then more men than women appreciate Messiaen's music, but does this actually mean anything? My mum usually uses a study in her stats classes, which shows a strong positive correlation between stork nests on chimneys and babies born to that household, in order to demonstrate that although there may be an incidental link, it isn't necessarily the obvious one for which you are looking. David Hume?
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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