|
increpatio
|
 |
« Reply #15 on: 14:14:47, 10-09-2007 » |
|
So I no longer believe there's any such thing as "absolute" pitch. I think everyone is capable of learning pitches, but some people have a greater aptitude for it (or they just started younger). Usually they've learned them by pressing the keys on an equally tempered piano tuned to A=440. This can become so ingrained that people imagine it's "absolute" - but pitch is a much more fluid concept than that.
I imagine the trouble here is a bit language-related. For instance, if we just taught pitches as frequencies, all would be goo don the absolute side of things. Owing to the difficulties, I don't think it's too fair to say there's no such thing as absolute pitch as such, more that it's not a trivial affair. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
dotcommunist
Guest
|
|
« Reply #16 on: 14:58:47, 10-09-2007 » |
|
I tend to find that I can name that pitch , not only by recognising the pitch itself, but also by hearing fairly clearly where & how the pitch is being played, so in this respect I'm better at recognising pitches played on string & wind instruments because I've basically memorised how the resonance-body responds to the tension/vibration involved. I find timpani-pitch recognition the most difficult.
After having prided myself in having perfect pitch, & whilst still a student I tried determining exact pitches from random sinus tones, & I more often got it totally wrong, (than if the same pitches were to have been played on purely acoustic instruments).
Another nice trick to acquire (again , some are just gifted at this) is 'perfect tempo', to be able to execute the tempo demanded (& be correct), or even to be able to name the tempo played correctly. I know about 4 or 5 people who can do this with 99.99% degrees of accuracy.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
time_is_now
|
|
« Reply #17 on: 15:19:30, 10-09-2007 » |
|
I tend to find that I can name that pitch , not only by recognising the pitch itself, but also by hearing fairly clearly where & how the pitch is being played, so in this respect I'm better at recognising pitches played on string & wind instruments because I've basically memorised how the resonance-body responds to the tension/vibration involved. I find timpani-pitch recognition the most difficult.
After having prided myself in having perfect pitch, & whilst still a student I tried determining exact pitches from random sinus tones, & I more often got it totally wrong, (than if the same pitches were to have been played on purely acoustic instruments).
That's very interesting, dc, and seems to recall something someone's said to me before, although it's certainly not a trick I've mastered myself (the instrumental recognition, that is). It's a sort of extension of singers being able to 'feel' a note in their own register, presumably? Timpani pitches are oddly difficult, yes: I have some experience of this, as it's the only pitched orchestral instrument I've ever played (I did once play the flute, but never in an orchestra). |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
|
|
|
|
martle
|
|
« Reply #18 on: 15:41:31, 10-09-2007 » |
|
random sinus tones Ouch. But yes, I'd go with a lot of that too, dc. But, as someone else with 'perfect pitch', I've always believed that it's really nothing other than a particular form of memory. What you say about recognising the propertires of instrumental pitch realisation relative to pitch is memory after all. And as the ageing among us like roslyn and myslef are all too well aware, memory starts to get a tad unreliable with the advancing years... I have a friend (another composer, known to some US members here at least) who does not have 'perfect pitch', but can remember any and all phone numbers he's ever known, practically from childhood. That's another peculiar type of memory. He can also talk backwards spontaneously, in both forms - that is, as a recording of speech played backwards would sound, and also as if reading it backwards. Not sure that last bit is anything to do with memory though.  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Green. Always green.
|
|
|
|
time_is_now
|
|
« Reply #19 on: 15:56:53, 10-09-2007 » |
|
He wouldn't have a very ... erm ... idiosyncratic website, would he, martle?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
|
|
|
|
Chafing Dish
Guest
|
|
« Reply #20 on: 16:03:07, 10-09-2007 » |
|
I believe there was a time when dotcommunist had memorized a good number of Hertz frequencies, as well, so that when he would hear someone play a wrong note, he'd ask them to play 571 Hz instead of 563 Hz, then he'd whistle both notes two octaves too high!!
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
dotcommunist
Guest
|
|
« Reply #21 on: 16:19:08, 10-09-2007 » |
|
It's a sort of extension of singers being able to 'feel' a note in their own register, presumably?
Timpani pitches are oddly difficult, yes: I have some experience of this, as it's the only pitched orchestral instrument I've ever played (I did once play the flute, but never in an orchestra).
Basically all intonation conversations I've had with brass players, especially horn players is that the required note will just not 'come out' right if one hadn't centered on hearing the note beforehand, and in-so-doing automatically preparing or tensing/easing the right facial muscles. a bit like this...  ...which is pretty much exactly how singers think through their notes before singing/projecting them.
Ouch.
But yes, I'd go with a lot of that too, dc. But, as someone else with 'perfect pitch', I've always believed that it's really nothing other than a particular form of memory. What you say about recognising the propertires of instrumental pitch realisation relative to pitch is memory after all. And as the ageing among us like roslyn and myslef are all too well aware, memory starts to get a tad unreliable with the advancing years...
Yes, I think you're right about accessing a particular form of memory, I might like to add that sometimes I can imagine the 'tactility', ie the work involved getting this or that note, but that's probably just me being mental. As for perfect tempo, which no-one really wants to pick up on, Steve Schick once pointed out that temporal memory is usually extremely accurate: using the example of the old analogue cassettes, if, due to end-of-tape, you have a song that ends midway, one can isolate the exact spot where the song is interrupted, even if , were one to notate the cut, it occurs on the most rhythmically complex spot. we've all had this experience, I think... |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
dotcommunist
Guest
|
|
« Reply #22 on: 16:22:56, 10-09-2007 » |
|
I believe there was a time when dotcommunist had memorized a good number of Hertz frequencies, as well, so that when he would hear someone play a wrong note, he'd ask them to play 571 Hz instead of 563 Hz, then he'd whistle both notes two octaves too high!!
have a cheesy, CD  funny that, there seem to be many things I do , and completely forget about, only to be reminded of them years later   . has anyone else had this experience  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
martle
|
|
« Reply #23 on: 16:27:34, 10-09-2007 » |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Green. Always green.
|
|
|
|
dotcommunist
Guest
|
|
« Reply #24 on: 16:30:24, 10-09-2007 » |
|
...NO  , not minutes later, YEARS later  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Notoriously Bombastic
Posts: 181
Never smile at the brass
|
|
« Reply #25 on: 22:00:02, 10-09-2007 » |
|
Does anybody else use particular pieces to recall pitches? For me an A is the big band arrangement of MacArthur Park, and Bb the start of Star Wars. Ignoring blaring trumpets, Eb is the Cellos in Eroica.
I just tested myself on A and Eb a few minutes apart, and got both. I wonder if it was far enough apart though not to have invoked relative pitch? Mind you, perhaps all a good pitch sense is is relative pitch over a very long time frame (I certainly haven't got perfect pitch, or I wouldn't need quite so much vibrato on euph!)
NB
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Notoriously Bombastic
Posts: 181
Never smile at the brass
|
|
« Reply #26 on: 22:05:22, 10-09-2007 » |
|
Another thought - I can generally tell what note a brass instrument is playing. I wonder if this is because I am subconciously familiar the slight tuning discrepancies caused by players correcting out of tune partials? I had problems in one prom (Doctor Atomic) following the trumpet line until I realised that the player was using a C trumpet, then it made perfect sense - the low C# was a slightly less confident sound, which it wouldn't be on the Bb instrument.
NB
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
oliver sudden
|
|
« Reply #27 on: 23:00:45, 10-09-2007 » |
|
Does anybody else use particular pieces to recall pitches? Not having perfect pitch I certainly do. I'm best at Bb where I can cross-reference a few different pieces that seem to live in my head at pitch. The clarinet certainly helps - that 'feeling' of high C is useful in corroborating it. If I played the A more often it would of course become confusing again. I used to be able to recognise contra F# on the piano even in the middle of complete atonal madness. Can't any more. First I started to confuse it with contra F natural then I stopped having any clue at all. No idea why. But it always used to sound like the beginning of the Debussy prelude 'What the west wind saw'. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Daniel
|
|
« Reply #28 on: 23:47:21, 10-09-2007 » |
|
Does anybody else use particular pieces to recall pitches? ... Bb the start of Star Wars.
Well I just tried that and it was spot on! Nice surprise. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
time_is_now
|
|
« Reply #29 on: 10:11:17, 11-09-2007 » |
|
I had problems in one prom (Doctor Atomic) following the trumpet line until I realised that the player was using a C trumpet, then it made perfect sense - the low C# was a slightly less confident sound, which it wouldn't be on the Bb instrument. I'm really glad you mentioned that, NB, because I was trying to work out what key the piece ended in (trumpets hitting the tonic on a really high note, but I didn't know what kind of trumpets they were and I'm still not 100% sure what pitch it was - C or higher?). |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
|
|
|
|
