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Author Topic: The Grumpy Old Rant Room  (Read 150226 times)
martle
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« Reply #1185 on: 16:24:55, 27-04-2007 »


'We're not all Rob Roys, you know.'
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time_is_now
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« Reply #1186 on: 16:29:27, 27-04-2007 »
Quote from: Milly Jones on 16:07:22, 27-04-2007
I haven't got all the dreadful diseases that kill people, like hepatitis and HIV etc.

Call me pedantic if you like, but HIV doesn't actually kill people. It develops into AIDS, which weakens the immune system, which if* your retroviral drugs stop working makes you quite susceptible to 'dreadful diseases that kill people'. But HIV/AIDS isn't one of them.
_____
*You could say that's a 'when' rather than an 'if'. But actually the retrovirals, despite not being the most pleasant thing to have to take every day, are so good these days that you're reasonably likely to die of something non-AIDS-related before the HIV does weaken your immune system to any significant extent.



If it's any consolation, by the way, Milly, last time I checked sexually active gay men weren't allowed to donate blood at all, being considered a 'high-risk group' per se. Undecided
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
Milly Jones
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« Reply #1187 on: 16:45:31, 27-04-2007 »
Yes you are being pedantic.  I meant of course that I haven't anything that is usually considered very serious in terms of blood donations - I didn't expect to be knocked back for headaches!  They were very kind about it though and thanked me for attempting to help.

There is a huge amount on the form about gay men and drug users also - but also a question for the hetero women "have you had sex in the last 12 months with someone who may have had anal sex with a male?"   Erm....hope not!!!!!! All the same, how on earth are you expected to know what anyone else gets up to?  I should imagine the most dangerous risks are the bisexuals really.  They of course often don't admit to it. 

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A
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« Reply #1188 on: 16:58:47, 27-04-2007 »
Quote
Call me pedantic if you like,

Sorry t_is_now -that is rather pedantic..... isn't it?Huh

A
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time_is_now
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« Reply #1189 on: 17:54:35, 27-04-2007 »
Quote from: Milly Jones on 16:45:31, 27-04-2007
There is a huge amount on the form about gay men and drug users also
It's the unquestioned proximity of those two categories that troubles me a bit ...

Quote
but also a question for the hetero women "have you had sex in the last 12 months with someone who may have had anal sex with a male?"   Erm....hope not!!!!!!
Well, that's your personal preference, I suppose, but I find it pretty offensive actually.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
A
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« Reply #1190 on: 18:04:23, 27-04-2007 »
you know, t_is _now, this is getting a bit too grumpy in my humble opinion.... chill out man  Grin

A
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time_is_now
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« Reply #1191 on: 18:14:47, 27-04-2007 »
Sorry, wasn't trying to out-grump anyone. But would appreciate if you could see that I wasn't being pointlessly pedantic about the HIV thing. There's still a lot of discrimination against HIV-positive people and I think it's worth trying to explain a bit of how the condition does and doesn't work.

 Smiley
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
richard barrett
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« Reply #1192 on: 18:22:19, 27-04-2007 »
Quote from: time_is_now on 18:14:47, 27-04-2007
Sorry, wasn't trying to out-grump anyone. But would appreciate if you could see that I wasn't being pointlessly pedantic about the HIV thing. There's still a lot of discrimination against HIV-positive people and I think it's worth trying to explain a bit of how the condition does and doesn't work.

 Smiley
I'm with you there. I can't say I was terribly keen on the "bisexuals are the worst of all" part either.
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Milly Jones
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« Reply #1193 on: 18:39:07, 27-04-2007 »
As this is now getting too grumpy even for the Grumpy Room, let's change the subject shall we?  I don't want to fall out with anyone over this or anything else. 
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richard barrett
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« Reply #1194 on: 18:44:08, 27-04-2007 »
No, Milly, I understood perfectly what you were saying. And nobody's saying you're anti-anything or politically incorrect. Nor do anyone's beliefs come into it, nor does anyone wish to prevent you from stating your opinion, although if in this particular instance it's found by some to be offensive that shouldn't come as a surprise.
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Milly Jones
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« Reply #1195 on: 19:00:48, 27-04-2007 »
It does come as a surprise.  I've heard gay men say dreadful things about women and not taken personal offence.  It's seems to be ok for the one side, but not the other. 

I did not mean to cause offence, I'm stating a fact. If this fact is unpalatable to a gay man, then he should understand that there are some things that I find unpalatable as well.

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time_is_now
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« Reply #1196 on: 19:17:01, 27-04-2007 »
Hi Milly

I don't want to fall out with anyone either, and I wasn't trying to be rude - in fact in my original message I was meaning to sympathise with your grunt by saying that gay men aren't allowed to donate blood either.

I don't have much time for political correctness as such either, and I do think you have every right to what kind of men you would or wouldn't want to have slept with (I did say this to start with, actually!). But there is a lot of misinformation about HIV and I do think it was worth me trying to put the facts straight.

Quote
There was only one form.  All the questions were on the same form, so proximity is inevitable.  I did not compose the forms, nor the questions.  I just answered them.  They must have the format for a reason.  They must believe there are certain risks attached to certain activities.  I just went along to do my bit, not to question their medical expertise.
The point I was trying to make was that the form tends to make people associate disease with gay or bisexual people. I think some of your comments proved this, to be honest. I'm not blaming you for that - as I say, it's a natural association to make given the way HIV and other conditions are discussed. That's not questioning anyone's medical expertise, it's questioning the unintended effects they produce by not being careful about the way they present their expertise to the public.

Quote
I've heard gay men say dreadful things about women and not taken personal offence.  It's seems to be ok for the one side, but not the other.
Well, I hope I'm not one of the gay men who says dreadful things about women. If I am, or if anyone else does, you have every right to be offended. Just as I have every right to be offended if anyone says dreadful things about gay men.

Quote
I did not mean to cause offence, I'm stating a fact. If this fact is unpalatable to a gay man, then he should understand that there are some things that I find unpalatable as well.
I'm not sure which fact you're talking about, sorry. (I'm not being difficult. I'm genuinely not sure which part of the conversation you're referring to now.)
« Last Edit: 19:18:40, 27-04-2007 by time_is_now » Logged
The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
Milly Jones
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« Reply #1197 on: 20:09:39, 27-04-2007 »
Quote from: time_is_now on 19:17:01, 27-04-2007
Hi Milly

I don't want to fall out with anyone either, and I wasn't trying to be rude - in fact in my original message I was meaning to sympathise with your grunt by saying that gay men aren't allowed to donate blood either.

Quote
I don't have much time for political correctness as such either, and I do think you have every right to what kind of men you would or wouldn't want to have slept with (I did say this to start with, actually!). But there is a lot of misinformation about HIV and I do think it was worth me trying to put the facts straight.

So, what are you saying exactly?  Are you saying that the medical profession and the underwriters for life insurance are incorrect as to their stance on HIV?

Quote
There was only one form.  All the questions were on the same form, so proximity is inevitable.  I did not compose the forms, nor the questions.  I just answered them.  They must have the format for a reason.  They must believe there are certain risks attached to certain activities.  I just went along to do my bit, not to question their medical expertise.
Quote
The point I was trying to make was that the form tends to make people associate disease with gay or bisexual people. I think some of your comments proved this, to be honest. I'm not blaming you for that - as I say, it's a natural association to make given the way HIV and other conditions are discussed. That's not questioning anyone's medical expertise, it's questioning the unintended effects they produce by not being careful about the way they present their expertise to the public.

I'm sorry but the way they present their expertise to the public is correct.  Fact. 

Quote
I've heard gay men say dreadful things about women and not taken personal offence.  It's seems to be ok for the one side, but not the other.
Quote
Well, I hope I'm not one of the gay men who says dreadful things about women. If I am, or if anyone else does, you have every right to be offended. Just as I have every right to be offended if anyone says dreadful things about gay men.

Whilst I'm glad to hear that you are so polite, I would not be offended personally.  I did not say anything dreadful about gay men other than I would most certainly not want a male partner who was having a physical relationship with another man. 

Quote
I did not mean to cause offence, I'm stating a fact. If this fact is unpalatable to a gay man, then he should understand that there are some things that I find unpalatable as well.
Quote
I'm not sure which fact you're talking about, sorry. (I'm not being difficult. I'm genuinely not sure which part of the conversation you're referring to now.)

I am referring to the statement about which you originally took offence.
« Last Edit: 20:16:04, 27-04-2007 by Milly Jones » Logged
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Milly Jones
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« Reply #1198 on: 20:17:37, 27-04-2007 »
Oh dear I'm making a mess of those quotes!
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time_is_now
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« Reply #1199 on: 20:18:15, 27-04-2007 »
Quote from: Milly Jones on 20:09:39, 27-04-2007
Quote
Quote
I did not mean to cause offence, I'm stating a fact. If this fact is unpalatable to a gay man, then he should understand that there are some things that I find unpalatable as well.
I'm not sure which fact you're talking about, sorry. (I'm not being difficult. I'm genuinely not sure which part of the conversation you're referring to now.)
I am referring to the statement about which you originally took offence.
Well, if you mean your statement that you hope you haven't slept with a man who's slept with another man, then yes, I never denied that was a fact. I just said I found it offensive. Which is also a fact.

I don't want this to get personal, and I don't particularly think it's worth continuing to argue, so we might just have to agree to disagree. But while we're talking about facts, can I just repeat my original message? If you think any of this is factually incorrect then please do say:
Quote
Quote from time_is_now
Call me pedantic if you like, but HIV doesn't actually kill people. It develops into AIDS, which weakens the immune system, which if* your retroviral drugs stop working makes you quite susceptible to 'dreadful diseases that kill people'. But HIV/AIDS isn't one of them.
_____
*You could say that's a 'when' rather than an 'if'. But actually the retrovirals, despite not being the most pleasant thing to have to take every day, are so good these days that you're reasonably likely to die of something non-AIDS-related before the HIV does weaken your immune system to any significant extent.


PS Don't worry about the quotes - I understood which bits were you and which bits were me! Smiley
« Last Edit: 20:21:15, 27-04-2007 by time_is_now » Logged
The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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