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Author Topic: Meeting Life's Challenges & Upsets  (Read 26265 times)
Turfan Fragment
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« Reply #885 on: 04:57:42, 29-05-2008 »

Well, Ian, that was an extremely lucid account of what must have been a very strange experience. Thank you for sharing it.

I don't think you should feel bad about what you've done; empathetic, yes, but not bad. I wish there were more scholars on my side of the Atlantic willing to make the extra effort of thoroughly questioning the approaches, claims, and assumptions of students. It always means more work, on occasions a certain hostility from colleagues, and an increased danger of slipping up and getting out of one's depth. In the long run, though, I think you are doing the student a great favor by letting her know what the 'hot seat' feels like. As long as what you have 'done to her' is followed by constructive and hope-inducing suggestions (deserved, I think, as you imply), then I'd have no compunction whatsoever were I in your shoes.

Let us know how it goes. I have always loved being near the Mediterranean, the Mediterraneans make great cocktails for sipping at the beach.  Lips sealed Lips sealed Lips sealed
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Ruby2
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« Reply #886 on: 09:07:12, 29-05-2008 »

Also ... there've been times in the last 3 or 4 weeks I've really wanted to log on here and just say hello or take a look around, but it would have meant losing track of which threads I'd read and which were new, so I had to wait until I had the energy to tackle them all. But I have missed people.
I hadn't noticed that you were gone (again), but then I haven't been about too much either. I hope all's well.

Ian, I don't personally think that what you did was a bad thing as such; it probably had to be done at some time.  I think that, given how far in she was, it wasn't going to be possible to do it in any nicer a way.  She had, you said, been informed of her failings in these regards earlier (in the day? or in the course of her PhD studies?), and that evidently (if the latter is the case) didn't work.

Quote
I think her work could be rescued, if it is much more focused, and takes account of a much wider range of perspectives on the issues she's dealing with - or else she will certainly fail, unless there are some ridiculously over-generous external examiners.
You should probably tell her the first part of that (I'd leave out the second, though).

I can't add anything to this from a [PhD] academic perspective but I can from the point of view of someone who's easily upset.  I would probably have ended up in tears in that situation as well, but just because I was annoyed and frustrated with myself.  Clearly I don't know the girl, but if she's anything like me it'll just have been an initial shock reaction and she'll get over it, dust herself off and get on with making improvements.  Like everyone else has said - you did what you needed to, after all she's there to learn.
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"Two wrongs don't make a right.  But three rights do make a left." - Rohan Candappa
martle
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« Reply #887 on: 09:41:43, 29-05-2008 »

Agreed with turfers and Ruby. Ian, all you have to do is have a sympathetic chat with her, putting these points across in a less formal way. I also think you ultimately will have done her a favour, and she really should have been prepared for this by her erstwhile supervisor. It's a good thing you'll be taking over, even if only in part.
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Baz
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« Reply #888 on: 09:44:40, 29-05-2008 »

...But whilst the two of us were asking her about these things (not in an aggressive manner, though not also not being content with evasive answers to these points), our head of research passed a note to the convenor of the seminar suggesting he stop the questions, as it looked like she was close to tears. Whilst maintaining (just) her composure during the seminar, when she came for a drink afterwards, it was obvious she had been crying a lot. Being at least half-responsible for this, I did feel bad; partially I hadn't realise how extremely naive she was about all of this discourse (though I gathered afterwards that some of her supervisors (of whom I am to become one) had brought it up earlier) and as such utterly unused to having to situate her own work in a wider discourse, let alone having to defend it against critiques coming from other angles. As I say, she was sweet, and in no sense could one say that her cavalier ideas of what the 'orient' represents were intentionally demeaning or racist, just ignorant, really. But it was as if her whole illusions about what this subject is about had been punctured, quite severely, how a certain idyllic innocence had been lost forever, how certain dreams - upon which her whole approach and music outlook were founded - were swept away forever...


Ian,

One often has to be cruel to be kind! I think you did her a good turn in the long run - the alternative would have been for such questions merely to have been postponed until the cruel formality of her Viva Voce, no doubt with disasterous results that would plague her for the rest of her life.

The whole point of such research seminars is to provide a platform for discussion, including research methodologies just as much as research outcomes. I doubt that she will proceed further without the positive intention of NOT placing herself in a similar position again. If that is so, she will look back on this experience with favour (even though such an experience can never be a pleasant one at the time).

Baz
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...trj...
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« Reply #889 on: 10:06:06, 29-05-2008 »

Baz and others above are absolutely right, Ian. Much better now, in the relatively 'safe' surroundings of an internal seminar, than at an external conference or, worse, her viva.

This is going to sound unbearably smug, but I honestly don't mean it to, but I've not yet really been challenged that strongly on any of my PhD work  that I have presented outside the tutorial room. Maybe it's actually OK, but I can't help thinking that a rougher ride at some early stage would, paradoxically, have given me more confidence in the long run. This isn't about "me-me-me", but I would say from experience that some tough questioning is not just useful but probably an essential part of postrgraduate study.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #890 on: 10:16:38, 29-05-2008 »

Thanks to all of you for your thoughts. One thing I sometimes tend to forget (which martle in particular has reminded me of in previous times) is the extent to which the rigours of academic debate, particularly in the company of those who do not share many of one's own basic assumptions, is such a shock to those who have never really experienced it, certainly not on a regular basis, and how it can be taken much more personally than at least it was intended. But I do agree with trj; being really put on the spot, even harshly, is a vital part of academic training. It forces one to sharpen up one's ideas, try and argue them more coherently and rectify logical fallacies, cavalier or amateurish use of data, unquestioned ideologies, and so on and so forth. I'm rather interested to know whether people think such an approach/such demands are over-'academic', or whether there's something to be said for learning such thinking (lawyers are often good at this) for application in many fields of life (and in particular artistic life)? I have a tendency to play devil's advocate a good deal, sometimes purveying possible critiques of arguments from points of view towards which I'm not necessarily 100% sympathetic, deep down, but inwardly do this at least twice as often with any positions, assumptions, methods of my own, somewhat obsessively. I suppose I've always thought this is the best approach, but occasionally I have doubts even about that (could this methodology be inwardly self-contradicting in that respect?). Just would like to know anyone else's wider thoughts on the subject.

Perhaps students today who have done more practically-oriented first degrees are even less familiar with academic rigour?
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Ron Dough
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« Reply #891 on: 10:32:36, 29-05-2008 »

I'd agree with the general tenor here, Ian.

Speaking from my own experience, I'd suggest that at each stage of academic progression what was expected shifted. At 'O' level, it was enough to demonstrate that you knew specific facts: by 'A' and 'S' level you needed to be able to start showing that you could interpret them, and by university the onus on research and background had shifted into a more prominent position still. Understanding these differences was an important part of being able to start producing the required results, and I'm sure that although the majority of students work this out for themselves, there will always be a minority who need more guidance in order to understand that with each stage of progression the requirements are not just for (much) more of the same, but a broader and deeper examination. When it comes down to specialist subjects, then you have to be aware of the level that others who specialise in them are working at, and it seems that in this case the poor girl either wasn't, or else, possibly, had already reached her boundaries. Either way, not making this clear would have been a far crueller move.

She'd obviously put a great deal of work into her presentation, but not the right work: to see this is upsetting, and her reaction was what one would expect. As others have said: it will call for great gentleness yet firmness to explain the level of explanation and proof that will be required for success in convincing others of her theories. Sadly the academic world is one which is ruthlessly inimical to innocence, but that's the way of the world, especially in these days of increased competition. It may be that she's already beyond her level. I hope not: but not being made to see that the level that she was working on for that presentation is incompatible with what will be required for progress is an inescapable fact.
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #892 on: 11:35:16, 29-05-2008 »

Hi Ian,
I am casting one more voice in support of you. If one wants to make a career in academia one has to be able to convince colleagues in her thesis. We all have to come to terms with our limitations. May be academic world is not for her or perhaps there is possibility for her to improve her work. She is in a process of defining her career, character etc.

Some people come to face their limitations at BA level, some at MA, I know many people who could not finish Ph. D. Some wrote Ph. D. but could not publish. At times colleagues critic may be not right, but in your case she was too naive with her arguments and assumptions.

I agree with Ron and everyone here 100%. We all have to go through so much to cleanse ourselves of illusions and to recognize our boundaries.

Situations like you describe are common and you did not do anything wrong. It is sad that we have to go through such knocks in life and at times we have to deliver them.

May be this is a good example to learn what Shakespear wrote (What you are now I will be).
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #893 on: 12:26:03, 29-05-2008 »

What a day of disaster it has been! First of all, we forgot to put the bin out! And as if that were not sufficient, we then realized - three days too late - that we had forgotten to attend to the tele-phonical account. We hope we do not overmuch dampen members' spirits by this relation. We really blame it all on our simplistic nineteenth-century conceptions of the Orient.
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Turfan Fragment
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Formerly known as Chafing Dish


« Reply #894 on: 16:44:09, 29-05-2008 »

Courage, Sydney! Think of all the people who don't even have a tele-phone... frankly, I've heard more deplorable 'grumpy rant' situations than your 'life's challenge'.  Roll Eyes

If this indeed ranks as a 'life's challenge' for you, then I'm afraid there's little our online community can do for you.  Cry
But who am I to know? Sometimes we muster incredible amounts of good will. You know where to find me if you need an e-hug.
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #895 on: 17:08:03, 29-05-2008 »

I've been in a depressed mood for nearly a week...  I was travelling from Moscow to London (where I've now arrived), but decided to go by rail via Berlin (mainly for devilment), and spend a few days there along the way.

However, around 40 miles short of the Polish/German border, around 10pm local time, there was a fearful crash and everyone on board the train lurched, with several people falling on the floor as we halted.  I was 9 wagons back from the front of the train, but word filtered back via the train staff that we'd hit a car on a level crossing - all three people in the car had been killed.  In the middle of the forest, as we were, it took well over 90 mins before the Emergency Services arrived, but there was nothing they could do for those who'd been in the car.  After the track was cleared, a replacement driver took the train on to Berlin.

Despite being only a passenger, I 've found myself feeling somehow complicit in the deaths of the people who were killed in the car, and the incident keeps replaying in my mind Sad 
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-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Milly Jones
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« Reply #896 on: 17:19:07, 29-05-2008 »

Sympathies Reiner.  None of the passengers could have been in any way complicit.  Accidents happen.  The car could have broken down on the line or got stuck in some way.  Every day, people may be in the wrong place at the wrong time.  A similar thing happened to us in Phuket when we witnessed a fatal accident.  We were one vehicle behind.  It was 15 years ago but I can still see that man's face - the one who was killed.  Again, we could have been in no way complicit, but you're traumatised by seeing the experience or in your case, just knowing about it. 

Try to put it out of your mind if you can.  There's nothing you can do to change the situation.  You'll only drive yourself further into depression if you dwell on it.  Difficult I know, but do try.
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strinasacchi
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« Reply #897 on: 17:28:24, 29-05-2008 »

Reiner, I'm very sorry to hear about this tragic accident.  It's a traumatic thing to go through, and it's only natural you're feeling the weight of that.  Give yourself time, talk to people about it (including here) as you need and want to, and get plenty of rest.   Sad Kiss
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A
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« Reply #898 on: 17:51:41, 29-05-2008 »

That's rotten Reiner. Thank God you are ok.
It is one of these things that it is easy to say to someone else.. put it behind you... but it isn't when it's you is it?
I hope things get easier for you as you come to terms with the awful episode.  Kiss

A
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Milly Jones
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« Reply #899 on: 18:08:14, 29-05-2008 »

That's rotten Reiner. Thank God you are ok.
It is one of these things that it is easy to say to someone else.. put it behind you... but it isn't when it's you is it?
I hope things get easier for you as you come to terms with the awful episode.  Kiss

A

A, I did say "try" to put it behind you.  As I said in my post, after my own experience,  I can still see that man's face 15 years later.  In no way did I mean that Reiner could do it instantly and forget it and pull himself together.  I was just registering sympathy and trying to help.
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We pass this way but once.  This is not a rehearsal!
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