Mary Chambers
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« Reply #30 on: 21:50:50, 29-08-2008 » |
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I really wouldn't want my students to call me by anything other than my first name.
When I was at university circa 1960, we had one lecturer, a young Oxford graduate, who insisted on being called by his first name, and who called us by ours. He was considered very daring indeed. Even undergraduates were addressed as Miss and Mr. I believe that in the armed services during the war women addressed each other by their surnames. It wasn't uncommon among the staff in girls' schools, either. My father always found it very strange when in his eighties and nineties he was addressed by his first name in hospitals, but being a tolerant man he just laughed, and accepted it as something that had changed. My gardener, who is, I suppose, in his early forties, always calls me Mrs Chambers (well, Mrs My-real-name). I call him Darren  T-p, on my one visit to St Petersburg in the mid-1990s, the people I was with were very surprised that shop assistants didn't smile. It didn't worry me - I thought they were just getting on with the job, and I actually preferred it to the "Have a nice day" kind of insincerity that has crept in here. I can't stand that - or the increasingly common "Enjoy your meal". There is no proper translation of Bon appétit into English.
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Philidor
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« Reply #31 on: 23:03:38, 29-08-2008 » |
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My gardener, who is, I suppose, in his early forties, always calls me Mrs Chambers (well, Mrs My-real-name). I call him Darren According to Emily Holt’s 'Encyclopaedia of Etiquette' (1921) that's incorrect (I got it wrong too above). Don Basilio was on the right track.  Note the sexist infantilisation of servant women compared to men: it's OK for the employing class to call them by their first names, but not the men. This is useful to know: It is not permitted, however rainy the day may be and however fine and fresh her unprotected bonnet, for a woman to accept the shelter of an umbrella offered by a man who is a stranger to her. But when a woman is rescued from some peril by a man whom she does not know, it is right for her to follow the natural expression of her thanks by asking, May I know to whom I am indebted for such valuable assistance?
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« Last Edit: 23:10:54, 29-08-2008 by Philidor »
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time_is_now
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« Reply #32 on: 23:47:56, 29-08-2008 » |
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It is not permitted, however rainy the day may be and however fine and fresh her unprotected bonnet, for a woman to accept the shelter of an umbrella offered by a man who is a stranger to her. But when a woman is rescued from some peril by a man whom she does not know, it is right for her to follow the natural expression of her thanks by asking, May I know to whom I am indebted for such valuable assistance? I shall bear it in mind next time Sinbad the Sailor looks up from his Guinness to rescue me in his strong arms from some fearsome peril. I don't mind what people call me, whether I know them or not, except that when a shop assistant or someone in a bank or somewhere is being irritating in some other way, the form of address they're using can sometimes become an extra irritation. I don't really object to 'Enjoy your meal', but the one piece of modern manners I really can't stant is the constant interruption of 'Are you enjoying your food?' which most British waiters seem to be trained to give. I usually want to answer 'I was until you asked', although I don't think I ever have said that!
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #33 on: 23:56:48, 29-08-2008 » |
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Unfortunately, t, such behaviour is all too often imposed from above by some company mandarin, and subjected to regular 'mystery shopping'. Woe betide any employee who fails regularly, let alone any manager who allows his staff to drop unnecessary points by failing to adhere to 'correct procedure', even when they have nous enough to see that the majority of customers find it as false and aggravating as they do.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #34 on: 00:11:25, 30-08-2008 » |
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Yes, R, that's why I said 'trained to give'. You're right about the wider trend, though: I do find it incredible that those who establish such things as 'correct procedure' don't realise how it's having the opposite to intended effect. I'm glad that when I worked in retail it was for a small-ish company that didn't force these things on me, nor ask me to force them on anyone else once I became an assistant manager.
Incidentally, speaking of my own experience in retail, I always took the attitude that we no longer live in a society with a clear distinction between those who serve and those who are served. I used to spend a good proportion of my day serving others but of course that didn't stop me from being involved in situations where I was being served (if I went to buy something in my lunch break, for example). So I just served people the way I'd expect to be served myself in a shop, and I never bothered about calling anyone 'Sir' or 'Madam', although of course I judged how familiar I could be with different customers based on my sense of the individual I was dealing with, just as I would do now if I was talking to a stranger in a bar or in the street.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #35 on: 00:30:01, 30-08-2008 » |
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When I 'filled-in' for a major retailer between other jobs, t, staff who'd not worked with me before couldn't believe that I'd change my pitch according to the customer, instead of following the basic script: it was a framework on which to improvise, not a finished template. Match the customer's mood and you're halfway there...
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prawn
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« Reply #36 on: 00:32:30, 30-08-2008 » |
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In certain types of shop, which I prefer not to go into anymore, it is not uncommon to be asked, "Can I help you, mate?" 
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Philidor
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« Reply #37 on: 00:32:47, 30-08-2008 » |
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I've a barman friend who can't stand the current habit of customers who say:
"I'll get a pint of lager."
I've heard him reply:
"No, I get the drinks round here, and you could say 'please'."
He’s a large Polish farmboy -- full of cabbage and potatoes -- and tends to get his way. Apart from that he has perfect manners and likes the English because of WW2. We talk about Polish 303 Squadron, the highest-scoring Spitfire unit in the Battle of Britain. He claims they hated the Germans so much they had to be taken on one side and told it was considered 'bad form' to machine gun a German pilot floating under his parachute over the fields of Kent.
Presumably the "I'll get a..." formulation is an American import. It does sound rude.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #38 on: 00:39:02, 30-08-2008 » |
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I just served people the way I'd expect to be served myself in a shop That seems to me a much better rule than "say stupidly servitudinous things as often as possible". The shop where I spent most of my retail-employee time was a pretty old-fashioned place (Farringdon Records in Holborn Viaduct and Cheapside, 1980-83, if anyone can remember that far back) - we weren't instructed to say "Sir" and "Madam" but it was somehow understood that this was how the place worked. On the other hand, for part of that time we weren't discouraged from smoking behind the counter! Imagine! I was quite put out when the proprietor decided he would put a stop to it.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #39 on: 00:42:36, 30-08-2008 » |
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Depends what you were smoking I suppose ...  (How do I make that smiley's eyes bigger?)
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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richard barrett
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« Reply #40 on: 00:47:50, 30-08-2008 » |
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Depends what you were smoking I suppose ...  These of course. 
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time_is_now
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« Reply #41 on: 00:50:47, 30-08-2008 » |
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Sheesh!
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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richard barrett
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« Reply #42 on: 00:53:33, 30-08-2008 » |
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Sheesh!
In Bruckner 6, sir, I think you'd be best off with the Klemperer recording on EMI, it's like this old German dude with his mouth like hanging open and it freaked me right out...
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time_is_now
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« Reply #43 on: 00:57:18, 30-08-2008 » |
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Incidentally, on the topic of fragrant retail premises, has anyone else had cause to venture into the basement of "LUSH" on Regent Street? I was dragged down there by him who must be obeyed the other day, and they appear to select their shop assistants from a curious species which looks vaguely like Homo sapiens except that its males are very short, quite cute but dress in sleeveless vests without paying attention to the unusual length of their underarm hair, and stand in the middle of the shop floor removing the tops from sample bottles while earnestly uttering brand names such as "Yummy Yummy Yummy".
It was a memorable if somewhat disturbing experience, although admittedly possibly heightened by the fact I hadn't slept for the previous 30 hours or so.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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richard barrett
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« Reply #44 on: 01:02:25, 30-08-2008 » |
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"LUSH" I find myself fighting for breath if I find myself within fifty yards of one of those places so consequently I've never entered one. How do the staff survive it?
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