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Author Topic: Roman Haubenstock-Ramati  (Read 2309 times)
Chafing Dish
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« Reply #60 on: 17:44:47, 11-05-2007 »

It's completely open until you make one decision -- and then it's less open. Thinking the left side is the start is already a culturally determined decision (*yawn*) excuse me..
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richard barrett
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« Reply #61 on: 17:49:05, 11-05-2007 »

... but we're not hearing much from him. I would guess from his work and previous comments that his project is not really in dialogue with the graphic score debate.
I have had more than 20 rehearsals and two concerts in the past two weeks, give me a chance...  Tongue

Regarding Blattwerk, I refer gentle readers once more to my little dumping ground of unpublished articles, in this case: http://furtlogic.com/blattwerk.html, and an interview I did with Arne Deforce, for whom it was written, http://www.arnedeforce.be/BarrettResBox.htm To cut that long story short, though, what happens here is that the score either specifies everything or nothing, so to speak - rather than using "graphic notation" to create the conditions (the "resistance", as Aaron nicely calls it) for improvisation, I use precise notation with "lacunae" (which in the piece in question gradually get longer, from less than a second to three minutes) within which there are no restrictions on what the player does, except of course that it ought to make (some kind of) sense within the framework set up by the notation. A term for this might be "seeded improvisation".

This of course is nothing to do with either RHR or graphic notation and is very selfindulgent, so my apologies, I just wanted to explain why I've been keeping relatively quiet.

Damn! How do you make those long URLs disappear? I'm sure I managed it once.
« Last Edit: 18:52:13, 11-05-2007 by richard barrett » Logged
Evan Johnson
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« Reply #62 on: 17:49:16, 11-05-2007 »

Oh. Is that what this was about? I didn't know any of the composers in this thread were using indeterminacy in their own work unless we are conflating indeterminacy with 'unpredictability' -- again I'm over-simplifying.


That to me is precisely why this whole subject is interesting.  Aaron, qt, and I would probably be lumped relatively close to each other by the uncautious commentator, particularly from the comfortable distance of the mainstream press or musical culture, by virtue of a shared tendency toward tuplet abuse and the use (fairly constant in Aaron's work and what I know of qt's, at least for strings, but more intermittent in my own) of more staves per instrument than one is accustomed to seeing for the purpose of separating different simultaneous strands of performative activity.  But for me the interest in the graphic repertoire is not only that, pace qt, some of the pieces are quite good, but that they have driven me towards what I find to be a very fruitful conception of what I increasingly regard as the convenient fiction of an ideally transparent notation.

The issue is not so much indeterminacy, although one could likely have quite a fierce debate about the degree to which that is a relevant concept in Aaron's work and in some of my own (particularly the overdetermined bass clarinet piece I mentioned earlier); it is the externalization of the cognitive process by which notation constrains the performer's activities.  Ian's oft-stated idea of notation as negative determinant is quite apt here and also very cogent more generally, I think.  While I don't write graphic scores, both (as I mentioned before) because I feel unqualified to do so and because I'm too interested for the moment in what I'm doing, their influence is profound more generally.
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TimR-J
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« Reply #63 on: 17:51:34, 11-05-2007 »

Quote
Thinking the left side is the start is already a culturally determined decision (*yawn*) excuse me.

Sure, or the right, or the bottom. But actually the direction you play the score isn't my point. Picking up a score and deciding to play it is a culturally determined decision, and I think that's the problem - Brown takes you that far, but offers no assistance beyond this.

(And on that bombshell I'm going to finish work for the day...)
« Last Edit: 17:55:10, 11-05-2007 by TimR-J » Logged
Evan Johnson
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« Reply #64 on: 17:51:41, 11-05-2007 »

For what it's worth, I think Maderna produced some very compelling combinations of indeterminate and precise notation (the 3rd oboe concerto being one). Though he didn't normally go graphic to the extent of RHR, say.

Is that one of the late pieces where there's a more-or-less standard score (with some open structure, perhaps) and then a splodge of geometric shapes?  I've always found those pieces of Maderna's to be unnervingly weak and underbaked, to the point where I wonder if he wrote them under either temporal or medical distress, or both.

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time_is_now
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« Reply #65 on: 18:05:44, 11-05-2007 »

Oh. Is that what this was about? I didn't know any of the composers in this thread were using indeterminacy in their own work
Well, I thought some of them were talking about why they choose not to.

Quote
Richard's blattwerk is a piece that deals with the spectrum of levels of determination in an interesting way... but we're not hearing much from him. I would guess from his work and previous comments that his project is not really in dialogue with the graphic score debate.
That makes sense to me, although I don't really know much about the detailed workings of those 'levels of determination' you mention (I've heard the piece in performance but never seen a score or read anything by Richard about it). But yes, as you say, that's a different sort of (in)determinacy from the (arguably) indeterminate* relationship between a graphic score and its realisation.
____
*Yes, I suppose 'indeterminate' might not be the most precise word for that relationship.
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #66 on: 22:51:47, 11-05-2007 »

I have had more than 20 rehearsals and two concerts in the past two weeks, give me a chance...

What an enviable ratio, my dear sir, if I may say so.  Shocked
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quartertone
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« Reply #67 on: 23:09:04, 11-05-2007 »

For what it's worth, I think Maderna produced some very compelling combinations of indeterminate and precise notation (the 3rd oboe concerto being one). Though he didn't normally go graphic to the extent of RHR, say.

Is that one of the late pieces where there's a more-or-less standard score (with some open structure, perhaps) and then a splodge of geometric shapes?  I've always found those pieces of Maderna's to be unnervingly weak and underbaked, to the point where I wonder if he wrote them under either temporal or medical distress, or both.

He did often write things in a rush and under pressure, I believe - but there aren't many scores at all that fit your description. What he did most in terms of indeterminacy was using mobiles, and some basic gestural elements would be graphically demonstrated. I don't think of him as an indeterminate composer, admittedly. And however underbaked his pieces may have been from a notational point of view, he was enough of a composer to put out some very fine music (maybe precisely because he wasn't interested in the whole conceptual schtick).

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aaron cassidy
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« Reply #68 on: 23:31:08, 11-05-2007 »

Quote
Thinking the left side is the start is already a culturally determined decision (*yawn*) excuse me.

Sure, or the right, or the bottom. But actually the direction you play the score isn't my point. Picking up a score and deciding to play it is a culturally determined decision, and I think that's the problem - Brown takes you that far, but offers no assistance beyond this.


Actually, the score is not specifically meant to be read from left to right, top to bottom, or anything else along those lines (though it certainly could be, these are only a few of the many, many options).  I'll quote from the prefatory note to Folio (which includes Dec '52 and several other similar-ish works), which includes misc. extracts from Brown's sketchbook from late 1952 ...

"... to have elements exist in space ... space as an infinitude of directions from an infinitude of points in space ... to work (compositionally and in performance) to right, left, back, forward, up, down, and all points between ... the score [being] a picture of this space at one instant, which must always be considered as unreal and/or transitory ... a performer must set this all in motion (time), which is to say, realize that it is in motion and step into it ... either sit and let it move or move through it at all speeds."

"[coefficient of] intensity and duration [is] space forward and back."

"The composition may be performed in any direction from any point in the defined space for any length of time and may be performed from any of the four rotational positions in any sequence.  In a performance utilizing only three dimensions as active (vertical, horizontal, and time), the thickness of the event indicates the relative intensity and/or (where applicable instrumentally) clusters.  Where all four dimensions are active, the relative thickness and length of events are functions of their conceptual position on a plane perpendicular to the vertical and horizontal plane of the score. ... It is primarily intended that performances be made directly from this graphic 'implication' (one for each performer) and that no further preliminary defining of the events, other than an agreement as to total performance time, take place.  Further defining of the events is not prohibited however, provided that the imposed determinate-system is implicit in the score and in these notes."

There's also a cool little graph of a cube that I wish I could copy here, but the caption reads "space relative to conceptual mobility and transformation of events in arbitrary, unstable time."
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aaron cassidy
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« Reply #69 on: 23:37:37, 11-05-2007 »

While I'm in a typing mood (I'm supposed to be writing program notes - agh!), here are the instructions to the aforementioned Edges, by Christian Wolff (I'd like to post the score, but that violates any number of copyrights, particularly since it's only a page long) ....

"The signs on the score are not primarily what a player plays.  They mark out a space or spaces, indicate points, surfaces, routes or limits.  A player should play in relation to, in, and around the space thus partly marked out.  he can move about in it variously (e.g., in a sequence, or jumpting from one point to another), but does nota lways have to be moving, nor does he have to go everywhere.  Insofar as the signs are limits, they can be reached but should not be exploited.  The way to a limit need not be continuous, in a straight line.  The limits, or points, can be taken at different distances -- for example, far away, like a horizon, or close, like a tree w/ branches overhead -- but decide where at any given moment you are.  You can also use the signs as cues:  wait till you notice one and then respond.  or you can simply play a sign as it is, but only once in a performance."

(the symbols are scattered around a single page in varying degrees of density, and refer to instructions such as:  sudden, modulated, short, directly after a long sound, spaced, high - very high, very rapid, intricate .... etc., etc. etc.
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aaron cassidy
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« Reply #70 on: 00:09:22, 12-05-2007 »

I really like December '52 even though most performances I've heard seem to be postulated on obvious "mappings" (Cartesian time/pitch relationship, etc.).  I'd also suggest that the score should be presented, somehow, to the audience when it appears on a program; grasping the performers' response to the challenge of "composing" a method to realize the score is, for me, one of the coolest things about hearing the piece.

Welcome, Colin!  Nice to see you here.  (I hope all these American midwesterners don't chase away all the people who actually, um, listen to Radio 3!)


Augenmusik did this once in concert, actually (though, we decided it was better to do before the concert, rather than during, thinking that these weren't really meant to be multimedia works).  We did a cool little slide show thing that had full scores, extreme close-ups of excerpts, bits of the instructions of various pieces we played, etc., all on a kind of random shuffle that played for the 30-40 minutes b/f the concert.  I thought it worked quite well.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #71 on: 00:18:19, 12-05-2007 »

(I hope all these American midwesterners don't chase away all the people who actually, um, listen to Radio 3!)
Don't worry about that, people who listen to Radio 3 probably won't have heard any Haubenstock-Ramati for a long while. Neither have I actually.

hello Colin, what a surprise to meet you here!
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #72 on: 00:23:52, 12-05-2007 »

(I hope all these American midwesterners don't chase away all the people who actually, um, listen to Radio 3!)

Remind me, what is that again? Wink
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Colin Holter
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« Reply #73 on: 00:48:16, 12-05-2007 »

Thanks for the welcome.  This forum is a real find.

How many performances did Augenmusik do?  Is the group still around?
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #74 on: 01:04:05, 12-05-2007 »

Welcome, Colin - it seems this forum is attracting many of the most interesting people involved in new music stateside!
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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