The Radio 3 Boards Forum from myforum365.com
06:57:57, 02-12-2008 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Whilst we happily welcome all genuine applications to our forum, there may be times when we need to suspend registration temporarily, for example when suffering attacks of spam.
 If you want to join us but find that the temporary suspension has been activated, please try again later.
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  

Pages: 1 [2] 3
  Print  
Author Topic: The Obligato Recitative  (Read 1214 times)
Sydney Grew
Guest
« Reply #15 on: 18:27:05, 13-05-2007 »

And on the subject of the spelling of Italian words in English . . .

The Italian language underwent its most recent spelling reform in 1612. That was towards the end of the life-time of Shakespeare, who invented a multitude of words, who must have had intercourse with Italians, and of whose plays the action of thirteen is set entirely or in part in Italy. Perhaps a Member knows the details of the said reform. English spelling in those days was chaotic.
Logged
Chafing Dish
Guest
« Reply #16 on: 18:55:03, 13-05-2007 »

More important than the spelling (I prefer one b because it agrees with obligatory) is the meaning of the word. We all know that it properly refers to something that must be played, but some composers have used the word to indicate a part that is optional - examples, anyone? - so each piece of music has to be taken on its own merits. I wonder whether Schoenberg fell into that trap?
The German "obligate" is indeed spelled with a single 'b'. It should translate as obligatory, though, not as obbligato. The two b's are an Italian anomaly and we borrow it when it means a specific thing, namely an instrumental accompaniment to an aria which otherwise might only include a continuo line.

In my interpretation the movement is not obligatory to be performed, but obligatory to be composed, just as a good operetta needs a rousing finale. Schoenbergian sarcasm?
« Last Edit: 23:15:19, 13-05-2007 by Chafing Dish » Logged
George Garnett
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 3855



« Reply #17 on: 19:51:39, 13-05-2007 »

In my interpretation the movement is not obligatory to be performed, but obligatory to be composed, just as a good operetta needs a rousing finale. Schoenbergian sarcasm?

That is exactly how Stephen Johnson seemed to be interpreting it too in his introduction to this very piece just now on 'Discovering Music'. It makes sense to me.
Logged
Tony Watson
Guest
« Reply #18 on: 20:53:55, 13-05-2007 »

The German "obligate" is indeed spelled with a single 'b'. It should translate as obligatory, though, not as obbligato.

But obbligato means obligatory too.  Huh
Logged
Evan Johnson
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 533



WWW
« Reply #19 on: 20:57:49, 13-05-2007 »

The German "obligate" is indeed spelled with a single 'b'. It should translate as obligatory, though, not as obbligato.

But obbligato means obligatory too.  Huh

I think the point is that obligate means "obligatory" in a non-musical sense - necessary, required - and that (unless CD or someone else will make me look foolish) it's not in fact used to mean obbligato.  So the recitative in the Orchestral Pieces is one that's just gotta be in there, rather than one that is "accompanied by a more-than-continuo instrumental ensemble."

Jawohl?
Logged
George Garnett
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 3855



« Reply #20 on: 21:09:36, 13-05-2007 »

At the risk of going round in circles, Tony is surely right, isn't he?  'Obbligato' is the Italian word which, in Italian, means the same as the English word 'obligatory' does in English.
Logged
Tony Watson
Guest
« Reply #21 on: 21:10:52, 13-05-2007 »

I think the point is that obligate means "obligatory" in a non-musical sense - necessary, required - and that (unless CD or someone else will make me look foolish) it's not in fact used to mean obbligato.  So the recitative in the Orchestral Pieces is one that's just gotta be in there, rather than one that is "accompanied by a more-than-continuo instrumental ensemble."

Jawohl?

I can accept that that is the intention with regard to Schoenberg's work, but I'm interested in your definition of an obbligato part as one that is "accompanied by a more-than-continuo instrumental ensemble."

I'm sure that it has been used in that sense and I'm in no position to deny it, but the reason I'm interested is that The Oxford Companion to Music gives no such definition or anything similar. It simply says that obbligato means obligatory and is applied to a part that is essential.
Logged
Evan Johnson
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 533



WWW
« Reply #22 on: 21:15:21, 13-05-2007 »


I can accept that that is the intention with regard to Schoenberg's work, but I'm interested in your definition of an obbligato part as one that is "accompanied by a more-than-continuo instrumental ensemble."

I'm sure that it has been used in that sense and I'm in no position to deny it, but the reason I'm interested is that The Oxford Companion to Music gives no such definition or anything similar. It simply says that obbligato means obligatory and is applied to a part that is essential.

Oh. Obbligato is one of the most confusing terms in all of musical jargon, mostly because it can mean both "required" and "optional," but that's not all; "obbligato recitative" is a particular phrase with its own proprietary meaning of "obbligato," which is that I gave above.  For example, this sentence was the first result in Google when I typed in the phrase:

"Jommelli's compositions tended to use more obbligato recitative, which involved the orchestra as a dramatic partner with the singer."
Logged
Chafing Dish
Guest
« Reply #23 on: 23:32:20, 13-05-2007 »

Everybody should go to their own little Grove Dictionary and straighten this out for themselves.

"Obligatory" has many shades of meaning, obbligato has one very specific meaning. To put 'obbligato recitative' and such things as 'violino obbligato' under the same roof, think of it as meaning 'lines that have been composed' rather than lines that are the result of keyboard (continuo) realization. A recitativo obbligato is, in other words, not a recitativo secco. The obbligato lines have to be played just so. Krect me if I'm wrong.
Logged
John W
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 3644


« Reply #24 on: 23:49:38, 13-05-2007 »

My Oxford companion says obbligato should mean the playing is essential to the piece of music, but in recent times careless musicians have misunderstood it as ad libitum which means optional and so scores with an obbligato part should be examined to determine if it really is obbligato  or ad libitum .

John W
Logged
A
*****
Posts: 4808



« Reply #25 on: 23:52:58, 13-05-2007 »

If it is recitative you are talking about now , recitativo secco is 'dry' recitative, not accompanied as such, just the occasional chord or sustained note. recitativo stromentato is accompanied recitative where there is an accompaniment which an be elaborate or not but is reasonably independent from the tune. The obbligato is an extra part which is usually on a solo instrument ( oboe, violin quite often) and this part is elaborate, entwining  and often feels completely free from whatever is going on, but enhances, and decorates the whole piece.
A
Logged

Well, there you are.
John W
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 3644


« Reply #26 on: 00:12:17, 14-05-2007 »

The obbligato is an extra part which is usually on a solo instrument ( oboe, violin quite often) and this part is elaborate, entwining  and often feels completely free from whatever is going on, but enhances, and decorates the whole piece.
A

A,

Yes. I've often thought of the instrument obbligato as the nearest to an improvisation, an elaboration (like a 'jazz part') and I suppose that's what the 'careless musicians' came to regard it as and it becomes ad lib ?


John W
Logged
Chafing Dish
Guest
« Reply #27 on: 00:37:10, 14-05-2007 »

If it is recitative you are talking about now , recitativo secco is 'dry' recitative, not accompanied as such, just the occasional chord or sustained note. recitativo stromentato is accompanied recitative where there is an accompaniment which an be elaborate or not but is reasonably independent from the tune. The obbligato is an extra part which is usually on a solo instrument ( oboe, violin quite often) and this part is elaborate, entwining  and often feels completely free from whatever is going on, but enhances, and decorates the whole piece.
A
Or several solo instruments: see the three oboes in "An irdische Schaetze das Herze zu haengen" from BWV 4: Ach wie fluechtig, ach wie nichtig ("O how flighty, o how nightie").

No one is contradicting each other on this page. At least, no one is contradicting me (yet). Just perhaps misunderstanding me. Perhaps!

Also, 'reasonably independent from the tune' is not an obligatory feature of an obbligato line, though one could say "having some contrapuntal integrity", though the aforementioned oboes are mostly in parallel motion. I wouldn't generalize beyond that these are composed on separate lines and treated as independent, motivically significant voices.
Logged
Baziron
Guest
« Reply #28 on: 09:03:37, 14-05-2007 »

This thread has - following my joke about the misspelling "obligato" - turned into an interesting exchange not merely about the spelling, but also about the meaning of the term obbligato. The confusion thrown up by this term is succinctly stated as follows in the Harvard Dictionary of Music:

"Obbligato [It.]. Obligatory, usually with reference to an instrument (violino obbligato) or part that must not be omitted; the opposite is ad libitum. Unfortunately, through misunderstanding or carelessness, the term has come to mean a mere accompanying part that may be omitted if necessary. As a result, one must decide in each individual case whether obbligato means "obbligato" or "ad libitum"; usually it means the former in early music and the latter in more recent pieces..."

Hence when Vivaldi (for example) marks the first concerto of his L'Estro Armonico as being written con 4 violini obbligati he is stipulating that the use of 4 violins is mandatory. Similarly, when (say) Bach writes an aria with an obbligato part for Oboe da Caccia, the inclusion of the part provided - as well as the named instrument - becomes obligatory.

In the 19th c. however, it is clear that composers had begun to use the term obbligato in the sense of "an additional part which is optional". This is, I suggest, because they had lost sight of the original meaning that attached to "needed part", and had begun to assume the term meant simply "an added part" (in the sense of being optional only).

I don't think the dropping of the second b would have been in any way important in this misunderstanding.

Baziron
Logged
Sydney Grew
Guest
« Reply #29 on: 09:54:47, 14-05-2007 »


According to little Josef Rufer, Schoenberg gave titles to these pieces only in January 1912. He wrote in his diary however that he was "on the whole unsympathetic to the idea, because the wonderful thing about music is that one can say everything in it, so that he who knows understands everything, and yet one hasn't given away one's secrets - the things one doesn't admit even to oneself." He adds that "there should be a note that these titles were added for technical reasons of publication and not to give a 'poetic' content." This proposed note has evidently fallen by the way-side!

In regard to "The Obligato Recitative" in particular Schoenberg thought that "The Fully-developed Recitative" or "The Endless Recitative" were better titles. So why was one of those not in the end adopted? Their meanings seem to be quite different both from that of the "obligato" and from those of one another do they not? Perhaps he did not think the point sufficiently important, or found the suggested alternatives too suggestive, but it is nonetheless another mystery. Most men who have written about this movement seem in their descriptions to favour the term "endless" and not "obligato." With "endless" they are comfortable - they are able to get to grips with "endless"! - whereas "obligato" makes them become very wary - is it not curious? Why should that be? Perhaps they are not quite sure what the term means.

Schoenberg's "1912 Diary" was published in Berlin in 1974; we must admit that we had not until to-day been aware of its existence and have naturally therefore not sighted it.
« Last Edit: 10:00:08, 14-05-2007 by Sydney Grew » Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3
  Print  
 
Jump to: