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Author Topic: Karlheinz Stockhausen  (Read 20523 times)
Al Moritz
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Posts: 57


« Reply #510 on: 15:39:12, 18-08-2007 »

Ian,

I meant to answer a few “huge” (your word) questions that you had asked in #457, but I got caught up in work and also could not suppress the urge to finally write a first draft of my essay on Stockhausen’s Himmelfahrt. That draft is written, and even though I am not very satisfied with it*), I have decided to turn my attention back to other things, like this one.

*) Describing music from a listening perspective is not always easy. Trying to convey in convincing terms what I think makes Himmelfahrt so unique has been at times agonizing, even though stimulating as well. It also involves a lot of cross-checking by listening to other music, which is time-consuming (and sometimes frustrating, because initial ideas do not bear out). If, on the other hand, I would just want to describe how the work was composed, I could simply make an extract from the composition booklet of the Stockhausen summer courses 2006 and would be comfortably done. However, I have no interest in this easy way out: it would not convey the listening experience that this work provides. (Of course, my essay will feature some relevant and interesting compositional details as well.)

I'm interested in how Stockhausen's music impacts upon perception (which isn't something so subjective as to be unanalysable - if it were, which listeners respond to Stockhausen would surely be a wholly arbitrary affair), which might include such things as the production of pitch or rhythmic hierarchies and thus processes, whether intended in such a manner or not, and then the extent to which the types of perceptions it produces are dependent upon the serial techniques employed. As a non-negligible community of listeners (albeit a small minority) do respond to Stockhausen's music, and respond prior to knowledge of its detailed workings, what are the aspects that they respond to?

An obvious answer might be: they respond to tension, to the visceral impact, to the colorful, thrilling and innovative textures in Stockhausen’s music that often go to the extremes of what music can be. They also may respond to the musical expressiveness – with that I do not mean “romantic” expressiveness, but that the music is filled with an exciting inner life.

An even simpler, or if you will, more fundamental, answer might be, and also one that addresses the question to what extent serial procedures have to be recognized:

The ever-present question in developmental music is “What comes Next”?. This is logical, since music is an art of time, it develops in time. This question, which constantly demands compositional answers as the music unfolds, is answered in Stockhausen’s compositions – just like in any music that deserves to be called great – in a very satisfying, and often intriguing, manner. Since any developmental music constantly raises this simple at-the-surface question “What comes Next”?, the question is independent of the issue if the composition at hand is serial or not. Hence, also the at-the-surface answers that the music gives have to be independent in their impact from a (below-the surface) understanding of serial principles by the listener, even though, as we have seen, the underlying serial processes by which Stockhausen delivers his answers can be heard as such by informed listeners.

Quote
There is of course the other question of why, as a larger number do not respond to this music (if they have heard it - but there are plenty of people who have heard works by Stockhausen and other modernist composers and either do not respond, or respond negatively), whether there might be some key minority interests and obsessions of the community of Stockhausen-likers that are not universal, or maybe do not really have the potential to be so? Or could it be the case that most listeners will hear similar things in Stockhausen, just some choose to valorise the experience positively, others negatively (rather than simply 'not getting it')?

I don’t think that all listeners can perceive the compositional answers to the question they pose, “What comes next?”, as satisfying. For example, the pauses that Stockhausen employs to create tension – at least I hear it that way – are experienced by Sidney Grew as an annoyance. Obviously, expectations from listening to more traditional music will not be fulfilled.  When you approach the music from a “traditional” mindset, and are not open to the solutions to specific new approaches of music-making, then the music will be lost on you. Yet I myself was surprised how easy it was to become familiar with the gestural languages of “modernist” music. It took me just a few weeks in 1999, whereas understanding of “traditional” classical music had taken me months when I started out with it at age 19. But then, my mind was completely open to it.

On a lower level that that, some listeners don’t even pose the question “What comes next?” since they are simply annoyed by the sound, i.e. to their ears, noise.

On the flip side, some of the listeners excited by Stockhausen’s music may just be thrilled by the general envelope of sound, without paying attention to the specific and detailed unfolding of the music in time.

Quote
And how might that relate to the techniques employed? Huge questions, I know, but important ones for analysis.

The serial distributions make for a satisfying spread of gestures and gestural connections over the time span in which the music unfolds.

This all may sound somewhat simplistic, but perhaps it is because on the most fundamental level the answer to your questions really is that straightforward.
« Last Edit: 15:48:39, 18-08-2007 by Al Moritz » Logged
Sydney Grew
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« Reply #511 on: 05:26:03, 05-09-2007 »





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ahinton
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Posts: 1543


WWW
« Reply #512 on: 07:46:17, 05-09-2007 »





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"Intentionally" Don't you mean "mercifully"?

As Shakespeare would (not) have written):

Karlheinz Stockhausen by Sydney grew,
Though why he was by Sydney, no one knew;
That opera house is wrong for Sieben Tagen
(Though is it better for Wotan or Hagen?).
Our Sydney here now claims we are "alert",
Yet all he writes is largely an impert-
inence and an irrelevance to Stock-
hausen, who is so easy just to mock.
He writes of "Stockhausen's notorious pauses"
Yet never in his case for other causes
Does Sydney give us better than his riddle
Of "what can only be described as...twiddle".
It's time for Syd on Karlheinz S to cease
And leave the rest of us (please God) in peace.

Best,

Alistair (who has already donned his coat)...
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Baziron
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« Reply #513 on: 09:40:39, 05-09-2007 »





This message intentionally left blank




"Intentionally" Don't you mean "mercifully"?

As Shakespeare would (not) have written):

Karlheinz Stockhausen by Sydney grew,
Though why he was by Sydney, no one knew;
That opera house is wrong for Sieben Tagen
(Though is it better for Wotan or Hagen?).
Our Sydney here now claims we are "alert",
Yet all he writes is largely an impert-
inence and an irrelevance to Stock-
hausen, who is so easy just to mock.
He writes of "Stockhausen's notorious pauses"
Yet never in his case for other causes
Does Sydney give us better than his riddle
Of "what can only be described as...twiddle".
It's time for Syd on Karlheinz S to cease
And leave the rest of us (please God) in peace.

Best,

Alistair (who has already donned his coat)...

Alistair,

It might have been appropriate to use Blank Verse (though I enjoyed your composition very much).

But I must here (perhaps unusually?) spring to The Doctor's defence! In his long missive #513, he made the great mistake of pretending to be an analyst who merely betrayed - through his speculative assertions - how easy it is to miss the salient points by applying totally alien criteria to the matter at hand.

However, in his posting #516 we see a quite different Doctor: here he adopts with more success the guise of a COMPOSER. Perhaps through some unforeseen 'drive' or innate 'creativity', The Doctor here (perhaps unwittingly) demonstrates his true potential for really understanding Stockhausen. The possibility of viewing empty space as something that is indeed deliberate is not only recognised, but indeed expressed.

Surely credit should be given at least for that realisation?

Baz
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richard barrett
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« Reply #514 on: 10:59:48, 28-09-2007 »

Has anyone else yet heard the Theatre of Voices recording of Stimmung? I would guess time-is-now and Al at the very least. I've just been listening to it. The singing seems to me very well done, and the 21st century recording enables the overtones to be more clearly audible more of the time than they were in the original Collegium Vocale record. It's good also to see that the performers were sufficiently committed to getting inside the piece that they devised a new version of it. What I find really problematic, though, is the spoken parts, which to my ears are (a) much too loud in relation to the singing and (b) delivered in a much too theatrical and exaggerated way. Both of these characteristics seem to make the piece more demonstrative than intimate, especially given the (embarrassingly?) intimate nature of the texts. Still it comes over as one of Stockhausen's key pieces, one which (like Momente, say, or Trans) creates an entire unrepeatable musical world in itself.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #515 on: 11:03:03, 28-09-2007 »

Great minds, Richard. Was just looking for this thread to post a link to this.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
TimR-J
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« Reply #516 on: 11:07:12, 28-09-2007 »

Great minds, Richard. Was just looking for this thread to post a link to this.

Indeed - just finished reading that myself!
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #517 on: 11:22:33, 28-09-2007 »

Hillier writes 'In calling the new work Stimmung, Stockhausen chose a word that has a constellation of definitions. Basically it means "tuning": not only the outward tuning of voices or instruments, but also the inward tuning of one's soul. People who have good vibes together are said to be in a good stimmung. And its root syllable suggests stimme: voice.' Hmmm - are we meant to think that both the male and female singers come together as one in the particular adulation of breasts in this piece, or might this be one more example of a particularly masculine sensibility making pretences to universality?

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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
pim_derks
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« Reply #518 on: 11:36:17, 28-09-2007 »

What a coincidence: I was reading trough this impressive thread myself just the other day and I thought it would be nice to add something to it.

Stimmung caused a scandal when it was performed at the Amsterdam Concertgebouw in 1969.
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"People hate anything well made. It gives them a guilty conscience." John Betjeman
richard barrett
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« Reply #519 on: 11:44:09, 28-09-2007 »

Yes, and Stockhausen lost no time in turning the episode to his own advantage. Although I don't think he ever really understood what the protest was about, I mean its connection with the "Notenkraker" movement among then-young composers to try to shake up Dutch musical life. One of their "demands" was to have Bruno Maderna as chief conductor of the Concertgebouworkest as I remember. What a great thing that would have been, although sadly it wouldn't have lasted very long. I do find it rather bizarre that in a country with more composers per head of population than anywhere else (I may be exaggerating) this orchestra has never shown more than the slightest interest in performing new works.

Oh, and, as one of the female voices in Stimmung says, "the male is basically an anymale".
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #520 on: 11:54:22, 28-09-2007 »

Recently someone told me that in some private correspondence, Stockhausen spoke of his work in more explicitly political terms than in his published writings and pronouncements, in particular holding up some of his methods as entailing a resistance to commodification. I'm very interested to find out more about this - does anyone know any lesser-known sources where this has been referred to, that I might not have come across? His relationship with the 1968-ers (and his understanding of what they were all about) is another subject that would seem to invite further study and consideration.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
pim_derks
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Gender: Male
Posts: 1518



« Reply #521 on: 12:22:00, 28-09-2007 »

Yes, and Stockhausen lost no time in turning the episode to his own advantage. Although I don't think he ever really understood what the protest was about, I mean its connection with the "Notenkraker" movement among then-young composers to try to shake up Dutch musical life. One of their "demands" was to have Bruno Maderna as chief conductor of the Concertgebouworkest as I remember. What a great thing that would have been, although sadly it wouldn't have lasted very long. I do find it rather bizarre that in a country with more composers per head of population than anywhere else (I may be exaggerating) this orchestra has never shown more than the slightest interest in performing new works.

One of the reasons why Maderna didn't become a conductor of the Concertgebouw Orchestra (the Notenkrakers didn't want him to become chief conductor) was his alcohol problem. Apparently the Residentie Orchestra didn't had problems with this. The Concertgebouw Orchestra was and still is a very conservative institution. Nowadays, most Dutch orchestras don't care much for new music, but in the past the Residentie Orchestra, the Radio Philharmonic Orchestra and the Radio Chamber Orchestra performed a lot of new works, by Dutch and by foreign composers.
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"People hate anything well made. It gives them a guilty conscience." John Betjeman
time_is_now
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« Reply #522 on: 12:43:25, 28-09-2007 »

the Notenkrakers didn't want him to become chief conductor
No, they didn't. They wanted Haitink to stay on as chief conductor but for Maderna to have special charge of new music and premieres, as I understand it.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
richard barrett
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« Reply #523 on: 12:53:10, 28-09-2007 »

I bow to your superior knowledge, gentlemen. I know that the other Dutch orchestras have been known to perform new works (I've heard most of them do it!) which makes the position of the Amsterdammers even more odd, no?
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time_is_now
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« Reply #524 on: 12:57:07, 28-09-2007 »

I've heard the Concertgebouw perform a premiere, actually, unless my memory deceives me. It was a bit shit, admittedly.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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