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Author Topic: Karlheinz Stockhausen  (Read 20523 times)
harmonyharmony
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« Reply #525 on: 12:59:35, 28-09-2007 »

It's a while since I looked at the score, but I seem to remember getting the distinct feeling that Stockhausen's original idea had been that performances of Stimmung should ideally be open to variation and that the 'Paris' version was a compromise. I think I've read somewhere about a performance that was performed without a pre-determined version, so I'm curious to know if there have been more performances like this, or whether I've got the wrong end of the stick, up which I am barking.
For me, one of the most problematic aspects of the piece is the poetry. If it's in German I can just about take it, but when it's translated into the language of the audience (which is, I think?, what he prescribes)... The only English translation I have read was so clunky, unerotic and embarrassing that I just couldn't see it working. Is the original German as bad? IIRC, Stockhausen's instructions regarding the use of the poetry is quite vague, and allows for their complete omission...

Hmmm - are we meant to think that both the male and female singers come together as one in the particular adulation of breasts in this piece, or might this be one more example of a particularly masculine sensibility making pretences to universality?

I think that this is a very good point. For all of Stockhausen's talk of universality, his universe is principally a phallocentric one. Just looking at the roles that men and women play in Licht, the power structures are quite revealing and play into fairly well established stereotypes.

Recently someone told me that in some private correspondence, Stockhausen spoke of his work in more explicitly political terms than in his published writings and pronouncements, in particular holding up some of his methods as entailing a resistance to commodification. I'm very interested to find out more about this - does anyone know any lesser-known sources where this has been referred to, that I might not have come across? His relationship with the 1968-ers (and his understanding of what they were all about) is another subject that would seem to invite further study and consideration.

Everything I've read on this subject suggests that he's so completely caught up with his own life and experience suggests to me that his political understanding of 1968 is somewhat individual. Hang on, something's coming back to me here but the library book's gone back - does he say something about how the mistake of 1968 was that the energy moved towards external revolution when they should have been focusing, like him, on internal revolution? It'll either be in the Tannenbaum interviews or Towards a Cosmic Music and I think he talks about commodification as well but it's all tied up with how everyone should listen to Stimmung because only then will they understand what it is to be truly at peace with the universe etc.

All of this is possibly relevant, let alone what actually happened to Stockhausen in 1968, which seems to have caused a personality change and sparked a rather dramatic change in his wardrobe.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #526 on: 13:30:40, 28-09-2007 »

performances of Stimmung should ideally be open to variation
That was the original idea with Kontakte as well, and look what happened there! I feel it would certainly be more true to the idea of Stimmung to perform it without deciding everything in advance. Stockhausen's recent tendency has been to introduce more fixity (in the new versions of Mixtur and Refrain for example, just at a time when (I think) performers could actually make a much better job of approaching the original concept than they could in the 1960s.

For me, one of the most problematic aspects of the piece is the poetry. If it's in German I can just about take it, but when it's translated into the language of the audience (which is, I think?, what he prescribes)... The only English translation I have read was so clunky, unerotic and embarrassing that I just couldn't see it working. Is the original German as bad? IIRC, Stockhausen's instructions regarding the use of the poetry is quite vague, and allows for their complete omission...
I find the more sound-poetry-like poems much more effective than the "explicit" ones - if only he'd stuck to that idea! I think, whatever language is used, much depends on the mode of delivery. What was beautiful about the way it was done by the original ensemble was that the poems came over as "thinking out loud" with each performer lost in his/her own thoughts as it were, whereas with Hillier the poems are "performed" (Tenor I is particularly at fault here) and as a result sound very mawkish indeed.

For all of Stockhausen's talk of universality, his universe is principally a phallocentric one. Just looking at the roles that men and women play in Licht, the power structures are quite revealing and play into fairly well established stereotypes.
I don't think this applies to Stimmung to anything like the same degree. For a start, quite distinct textual material is given to the male and female vocalists. And what does it actually mean to you to say that "his universe is principally a phallocentric one"?

let alone what actually happened to Stockhausen in 1968, which seems to have caused a personality change and sparked a rather dramatic change in his wardrobe.
Richard Toop reckons that what "happened" was the 1970 world fair in Osaka. Then Stockhausen famously came across the Urantia Book (which lies behind many of the ideas in LICHT) in 1971.
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #527 on: 13:40:25, 28-09-2007 »

Richard Toop reckons that what "happened" was the 1970 world fair in Osaka.
Believe it or not: I'm informed by the only two people of my acquaintance who were present that I was conceived at the 1970 world fair in Osaka.  Shocked
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richard barrett
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« Reply #528 on: 13:42:10, 28-09-2007 »

Richard Toop reckons that what "happened" was the 1970 world fair in Osaka.
Believe it or not: I'm informed by the only two people of my acquaintance who were present that I was conceived at the 1970 world fair in Osaka.  Shocked
But not during a Stockhausen performance I take it.
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #529 on: 13:42:44, 28-09-2007 »

But not during a Stockhausen performance I take it.
Ah, now that I'd have to check.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #530 on: 13:47:52, 28-09-2007 »

But not during a Stockhausen performance I take it.
Ah, now that I'd have to check.
It could of course also have been during a David Tudor or Takemitsu performance or any number of others... the various exhibitors seem to have been falling over one another to associate themselves with modern music back then...

... as opposed to, er, just falling over one another...
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pim_derks
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« Reply #531 on: 00:11:48, 29-09-2007 »

They wanted Haitink to stay on as chief conductor but for Maderna to have special charge of new music and premieres, as I understand it.

Yes, that's correct. Smiley

I know that the other Dutch orchestras have been known to perform new works (I've heard most of them do it!) which makes the position of the Amsterdammers even more odd, no?

That's also correct. Wink

Unfortunately...  Sad
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #532 on: 13:41:26, 08-11-2007 »


We can imagine the "composer" of this extract chuckling to himself in a frightfully German way - "Ich bin the first man ever to write a bar in 142/8 time!"

Pretty puerile and seventh-rate stuff nevertheless is it not? Sharp Members will perceive how well it matches the man's taste in trousers.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #533 on: 14:09:35, 08-11-2007 »

Pretty puerile and seventh-rate stuff nevertheless is it not?

Nice to see the Stockhausen thread revived, and with such a detailed and thought-provoking analysis of Piano Piece 9.

No, it isn't puerile or seventh-rate: actually it's the opening stages of a musical structure whose radicality, sense of syntax and expressive qualities are all quite fascinating, for those prepared to listen.
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autoharp
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« Reply #534 on: 19:12:29, 08-11-2007 »

But I still think Piano piece 9 is one of the weakest of the early ones.

However, one thing I'd like to know is if was revised after he became aware of La Monte Young's X for Henry Flynt. (Cardew seemed to think so - I remember discussing this with Hugh Davies back in the 1970s - he didn't know for certain). An interesting difference is that whereas Young's piece assumes (?) that the repetitions of the single chord are to be as similar as possible, Stockhausen wanted variety between the repetitions: at least I presume so, since I witnessed a Kontarsky performance in which he constantly altered his fingering in that section.

Why does member Grew find the repeated chords "puerile" ?

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richard barrett
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« Reply #535 on: 19:27:14, 08-11-2007 »

one thing I'd like to know is if was revised after he became aware of La Monte Young's X for Henry Flynt

I hadn't heard that but it wouldn't surprise me. Unlike in X, though, the repeated chord isn't the main point of the piece, though it's the aspect which gets the most attention: as usual with his "appropriations" Stockhausen attempts to absorb the idea into his own all-embracing serial universe. Something I find interesting about no.9 is that the elaborate melodic shapes which develop later on (out of the hesitant chromatic scale which in turn "grows" out of the chord in bar 3) are prophetic of the kind of material which would become central to his work from the 70s onward.
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autoharp
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« Reply #536 on: 19:36:10, 08-11-2007 »

Something I find interesting about no.9 is that the elaborate melodic shapes which develop later on (out of the hesitant chromatic scale which in turn "grows" out of the chord in bar 3) are prophetic of the kind of material which would become central to his work from the 70s onward.

Indeed interesting. I didn't know that.
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #537 on: 20:15:17, 08-11-2007 »

Note how the "chord" in the first bar is designed to be as annoying as possible - a minor second and a major seventh struck together. Well! That is just as puerile in its own middle-European way as the hundred and forty-two beats to a bar. How he must have chuckled at the sight of his audience!
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martle
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« Reply #538 on: 20:36:05, 08-11-2007 »

Note how the "chord" in the first bar is designed to be as annoying as possible - a minor second and a major seventh struck together.

Not so! The ''chord'', as notationally registrated, contains one semitone, indeed; but no major sevenths! There is an augmented octave (or sounding minor ninth) - quite a different inversion entirely! In fact we note that the chord as a whole, regardless of its symmetrical arrangement about the inner F-sharp/G axis, contains the following absolute intervals: 2 semitones (interval class 1), 2 perfect fourths (interval class 5) and 2 augmented fourths (interval class 6), readily represented by the vector [0167]. But, palpably, register is of some concern to Herr Stockhauezenn in his distribution of these intervallic elements, a fact deafeningly obvious from an attentive hearing of the work is it not? We venture to suggest the composer was in the mood for dark green denim trousers at the time of its composition.

We really do urge the Member to aspire to rather more thorough anaytical donkey work before launching in with lies or half truths then somewhere we may yet get!

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Green. Always green.
Andy D
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« Reply #539 on: 20:46:27, 08-11-2007 »

I get confused by all this but isn't C# to C a diminished octave? The F# to G seems to be a minor second as the poster said.
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