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Author Topic: Karlheinz Stockhausen  (Read 20523 times)
Don Basilio
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« Reply #705 on: 12:46:21, 27-06-2008 »

I have in front of me Percy Scholes' Oxford Companion to Music, first published 1938, but in the 10th edition of 1975.  Much of it seems musicology on another planet, compared to what I have seen around here and at M&S.

The entry of Stockhausen seems perfectly descriptive (ie. "He is a celebrated representative of the more advanced German followers of Webern and has made much study of electrophonic music".)  Electrophonic sounds a bit a Grewism, but I may be wrong.

There is a possible sting in the tail in the final words:

"He often engages in formidably technical discussions of the scientific basis of his art, in terms not always clearly understood by trained physicists."

Just popping this up for quaint historic interest.
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #706 on: 13:00:39, 27-06-2008 »

Quote
The festival is curated by one of Stockhausen's trusted interpreters, Oliver Knussen . . .
The South Bank Centre's spokesman is illiterate, since there is no such verb as "curate." The great Oxford English Dictionary does list a verb "curatize" but even that cannot be what he intended to say or convey since it is intransitive and a nonce-word at that.
There is surely a fallacy there, Mr Grew. The English language is constantly developing, and no dictionary can ever keep pace with those developments: at the very moment any such work is published, it is already a historical document in the matter of certain details, for the language dictates what appears in dictionaries, not the reverse.

 The idea of festivals and exhibitions being 'curated' by an individual is in itself recent, but since it is a term heard occasionally on BBC Arts programmes and seen in the broadsheets to define this very specific new occupation, it must be reaching the point where, as an accepted neologism, it may well soon be included in dictionaries.

 It has long been in the nature of our language to adapt or adopt words when new concepts require them: this would appear to be exactly such a case.
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David_Underdown
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« Reply #707 on: 15:52:49, 27-06-2008 »

I don't know which edition of the OED Mr Grew has consulted.  The online version (available online free, gratis and for nothing, to all memebrs of a UK local library) states:

Quote
curate v

trans. To act as curator of (a museum, exhibits, etc.); to look after and preserve. So curated ppl. a.

and dates the first usage as a verb to 1870 (so even before the fall of civilisation as we kwo it in 1908)
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« Reply #708 on: 16:33:48, 27-06-2008 »

Clearly Mr Grew needs to become a little more hip to the jive.
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Turfan Fragment
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« Reply #709 on: 16:37:46, 27-06-2008 »

Stockhausen wrote some really wonderful music did not he?

I am so sorry to have to miss all of the November Stockhausen festival. I think we ought to have one here in Champaign-Urbana, Illinois.
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pim_derks
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« Reply #710 on: 16:50:13, 27-06-2008 »

the fall of civilisation as we kwow it in 1908



Exactly one hundred years ago next week. Wink
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #711 on: 11:00:06, 28-06-2008 »

I don't know which edition of the OED Mr Grew has consulted.  The online version (available online free, gratis and for nothing, to all members of a UK local library) states:

Quote
curate v

trans. To act as curator of (a museum, exhibits, etc.); to look after and preserve. So curated ppl. a.

and dates the first usage as a verb to 1870 (so even before the fall of civilisation as we know it in 1908).

We have both the 2001 computerized edition and the 1987 micrographic edition. In neither of these does the verb "curate" appear. We can only assume that in the on-line version to which Mr. Undersdown refers the word has been inserted as a sop to an anticipated large Northern American audience.

Another of our dictionaries however, the 1994 Chambers, does contain the word, and points out that it is a back-formation from "curator."

We attempted also to refer to the large Chambers's [sic] Twentieth Century Dictionary of 1903. "Digitized by Microsoft" it together with much else is available at the Internet Archive. Well! It just happens that the incompetent Microsoft employees managed to omit the crucial page (228)!

There is no verb "curate" in the Collins Dictionary of 1979, but the word does make another regrettable appearance in the 2001 third edition of the Collins Cobuild Dictionary for "Advanced Learners." This dictionary is of course derived in large part from a spoken corpus and is as might reasonably be expected full of bad and faulty language. We are very much in favour of prescription rather than description in a dictionary but since the great fall of 1908 it has become increasingly difficult to find one of that kind.

It is interesting to hear from the Member that the word was first noted in 1870, because this means that the various editors of the Supplements to the O.E.D. (1933 - 1976) would have been aware of "curate" but must have taken a specific or conscious decision to omit it as being a bastard formation.

I have in front of me Percy Scholes' Oxford Companion to Music, first published 1938, but in the 10th edition of 1975.  Much of it seems musicology on another planet, compared to what I have seen around here and at M&S.

The entry on Stockhausen seems perfectly descriptive (ie. "He is a celebrated representative of the more advanced German followers of Webern and has made much study of electrophonic music".)  Electrophonic sounds a bit a Grewism, but I may be wrong.

There is a possible sting in the tail in the final words:

"He often engages in formidably technical discussions of the scientific basis of his art, in terms not always clearly understood by trained physicists."

As far as "electrophonic" is concerned we stand shoulder to shoulder with Percy Scholes. In his concise Dictionary of Music (awarded to us for "General Proficiency" at School incidentally) he writes:

"Electrophonic, Electrotonic (sometimes mangled into Electronic, which properly would have a more general signification). Applied to methods of producing tone electrically, i.e. without strings, pipes, &c."

We see what he means about the mangling, but do not quite understand why he brought "electrotonic" in or even what "electrotonic" music might be. Music through the nerve endings perhaps.

As far as the Stockhausens are concerned, we find in our Scholes Franz, Margarete née Schmuck, who was at one time very popular in Britain, Julius, and a second Franz, but no Karl at all.

Stockhausen wrote some really wonderful music did not he?

Unfortunately we do not see it. we possess a good many recordings of the productions of Karl, but like a good many other persons we are obliged to say that we have never taken pleasure in a single note he wrote. In fact we are convinced that he set out in a rather German way with the intention of disturbing bewildering and annoying his auditors rather than of entertaining or uplifting them. Of course all our recordings are of works produced before the mid-seventies - we gave up on him at around that time. But - let us repeat this point because it is important - is it not true that his intention was to disturb people? We think he can be slotted into the same category as those persons who scribble upon the walls of noble public institutions. Very soon he will be forgotten, and in the year 2400 rediscovered, and a "Stockhausen Appreciation Society" formed, whose members, sitting around pretending to listen earnestly to his by that date ancient squeaks and pops, will really have quite different agenda - unimaginable by us primitives - on their minds.
« Last Edit: 11:04:28, 28-06-2008 by Sydney Grew » Logged
Don Basilio
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« Reply #712 on: 11:45:23, 28-06-2008 »

Well, Dr Grew, Mr Underdown and I both subscribe to libraries that give the following entry for the verb "curate".

 
Quote
orig. U.S.

Hide pronunciation* Hide etymology* Hide quotations* Hide date charts*

(kj{shtu}{schwa}{sm}re{shti}t)  [Back-formation f. CURATOR n.; cf. *CURATING vbl. n.3]

    trans. To act as curator of (a museum, exhibits, etc.); to look after and preserve. So cu{sm}rated ppl. a.

                        1870   1985
1978
1972
1969
1934   
   _1100_   _1200_   _1300_   _1400_   _1500_   _1600_   _1700_   _1800_   _1900_   _2000_   _2100_
1870 H. JAMES Let. 13 Feb. (1974) I. 205 Maddersfield Court{em}a most delightful old curated manor-house. 1934 WEBSTER, Curate v.t. 1969 Daily Tel. (Colour Suppl.) 6 June 43/4 All London Zoo's mammals were being curated with tremendous flair. 1972 Nature 20 Oct. p. xii (Advt.), Mineralogist to curate the meteorite collection which forms part of the National Collection of minerals, rocks, meteorites and ocean bottom deposits. 1978 Amer. Poetry Rev. Nov./Dec. 17/3 A Nest of Hooks reads like a sort of museum, a beautifully curated warehouse of strange and wonderful things. 1985 M. DIAMOND in S. Davies By Gains of Industry 5 We are..conscious of the debt we owe to those who built what we are now privileged to curate.

Ah me, I was a pale young curate then, to quote one of my favourite composers, as likely to be condemned by Dr Grew as Herr K Stockhausen.
« Last Edit: 22:13:45, 28-06-2008 by Don Basilio » Logged

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Turfan Fragment
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« Reply #713 on: 16:03:43, 28-06-2008 »

Good work there, DB; now I need a second dictionary to decipher the formatting.  Wink
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #714 on: 16:46:33, 28-06-2008 »

OK, turfan, fair enough.  I copied the timeline which did indeed show the earliest example in 1871, but it doesn't come out too well when cut'n'pasted.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #715 on: 16:52:12, 28-06-2008 »

Right, the OED's definition is

trans. To act as curator of (a museum, exhibits, etc.); to look after and preserve. So cu{sm}rated ppl. a.

The quotations are

1870 H. JAMES Let. 13 Feb. (1974) I. 205 Maddersfield Court{em}a most delightful old curated manor-house. 1934 WEBSTER, Curate v.t. 1969 Daily Tel. (Colour Suppl.) 6 June 43/4 All London Zoo's mammals were being curated with tremendous flair. 1972 Nature 20 Oct. p. xii (Advt.), Mineralogist to curate the meteorite collection which forms part of the National Collection of minerals, rocks, meteorites and ocean bottom deposits. 1978 Amer. Poetry Rev. Nov./Dec. 17/3 A Nest of Hooks reads like a sort of museum, a beautifully curated warehouse of strange and wonderful things. 1985 M. DIAMOND in S. Davies By Gains of Industry 5 We are..conscious of the debt we owe to those who built what we are now privileged to curate.

The origin is given as US, as Dr Grew suspected and indeed the second quote above is from Webster's Dictionary.  But there have been British usages from 1969 in that eminent newspaper which resolutely refused to swing throughout the sixties, the Daily Torygraph itself.

I must check on whether the OED covers British/American usages.  I'll look up broom closet.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #716 on: 13:14:54, 19-07-2008 »

Moving right along...

who is planning to go to the Stockhausen day at the Proms?



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Ron Dough
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« Reply #717 on: 13:20:12, 19-07-2008 »

It would be on my list were I nearer, but sadly it's highly unlikely that I'll make even a single Prom this year.
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George Garnett
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« Reply #718 on: 14:01:28, 19-07-2008 »

                                        

I'll be there for the main (6.00) concert in the evening. Whether I stay on for the late night Stimmung as well may depend on how the old attention span is bearing up by then.
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perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #719 on: 14:55:40, 19-07-2008 »

Moving right along...

who is planning to go to the Stockhausen day at the Proms?

Possibly - it depends on squaring one or two domestic demands but I'm hoping to head North for at least part of the day.
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