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Author Topic: Ambulance-chasing works?  (Read 2576 times)
autoharp
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« Reply #30 on: 10:44:05, 25-03-2007 »

I'm a bit puzzled by your choices, teleplasm. By the War Requiem for example ?

Benjamin Meyers is a new name to me - any info on him ?

I'm puzzled by your puzzlement. As surely everyone knows, the War Requiem is a lament for the slaughter of the First World War, using Wilfred Owen's wartime poems. Of course, Britten, being a pacifist, sought to imply that all war is wrong in any circumstances, but that was something attached to its ostensible purpose. If you can swallow some of the choices in the opening message, I can't see why you have trouble with this one.

I don't know much about Meyers' opera beyond the fact that its subject matter is Julius and Ethel Rosenberg (the two American Communists who gave Stalin the secret of the H-bomb), who are regarded as martyrs on the left, like Sacco and Vanzetti also, of course.

So Britten is "ambulance-chasing" some 40-odd years after the event ? Or are you simply unsympathetic to the idea of any form of "lament" ?
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richard barrett
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« Reply #31 on: 11:23:21, 25-03-2007 »

Quote
it could be argued that the very choice of subject matter is entailed with a certain emotional blackmail, appealing to a purely emotive response to the horrors of war as an alternative to a more rational engagement with the very phenomenon and how it comes about. And the collective grieving it instills acts as a type of purging catharsis, so that its audience can feel their consciences to be alleviated and not have to worry about such things the rest of the time.
That could be argued, yes, but that presupposes that any reaction on the audience's part would be one in which the immediate emotional response outweighs the parallel, contemplative and indeed rational response, and this is probably a matter for the listener rather than for the composer. It could also perhaps be argued that the experience of the work itself is supposed to (and I think often does) act as a starting point for thinking about the issues involved, rather than an excuse to escape thinking about them.

I'm not sure whether the Aristotelian concept of "catharsis" even applied in the time of Greek tragedy to the extent that he thought it did. Euripides' "Trojan Women", for example, written in the aftermath of the Greek massacre and enslavement of the Melians (who had tried to remain neutral in the war between Athens and Sparta), was surely intended to draw the Athenians' attention to this war crime rather than expiate their guilt for it. Note that I'm not making specific reference to Britten's War Requiem, which I've never heard. An emotional reaction to real-world events is often the spur to the kind of thinking that leads to action. The extent to which music can mediate this process is another matter, but I wouldn't necessarily be scornful of attempts for it to do so.
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #32 on: 11:50:04, 25-03-2007 »

Shostakovich - Symphony no. 7

Is it physically possible to chase an ambulance you're actually in? Surely the whole point concerning the nature of the relationship of that particular symphony to the siege of Leningrad is that the composer was inspired by his personal experience of it, rather than gratuitously exploiting the situation by tacking his emotions onto someone else's story?

In any case the title as well as the implied narrative behind the work were not the necessarily the composer's intentions; Reiner has pointed out that Shostakovich's chosen title was The Legendary. The smuggling of a microfilm copy of the score out of Russia via Tehran in 1942 and its triumphant American first performance in the same year (just months after the Russian première) made it a valuable propaganda weapon, the stuff of mythology. Much of the received wisdom concerning it is little more than western journalistic spin.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #33 on: 12:37:05, 25-03-2007 »

Possibly right, Ian. I should just entitle the piece "To B.W." and have done with it ! But you're escaping the point aren't you ? Unless of course you believe that any form of piece declared (shall we say) as a memorial is "ambulance-chasing": that's a bit over the top isn't it ?

No, I'm not going that far, was just responding to your hypothetical worries! Actually, I simply think there are certain works that latch themselves onto something one 'has' to feel sorry about rather too easily, so as to displace attention from other aspects of the music.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Ian Pace
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« Reply #34 on: 12:41:48, 25-03-2007 »

Quote
it could be argued that the very choice of subject matter is entailed with a certain emotional blackmail, appealing to a purely emotive response to the horrors of war as an alternative to a more rational engagement with the very phenomenon and how it comes about. And the collective grieving it instills acts as a type of purging catharsis, so that its audience can feel their consciences to be alleviated and not have to worry about such things the rest of the time.
That could be argued, yes, but that presupposes that any reaction on the audience's part would be one in which the immediate emotional response outweighs the parallel, contemplative and indeed rational response, and this is probably a matter for the listener rather than for the composer. It could also perhaps be argued that the experience of the work itself is supposed to (and I think often does) act as a starting point for thinking about the issues involved, rather than an excuse to escape thinking about them.

That depends a great deal upon the piece itself. I can't believe that, say, Stocken's Lament for Bosnia is likely to act as a starting point for a contemplative and rational response to the complexities of the situation in former Yugoslavia. And, say, from reading some reviews of Finnissy's North American Spirituals, which is a wholly different category of work, I do get the feeling that these critics, at least (their responses may be unrepresentative) manage to bypass the complex questions of racism, assimilation and appropriation that are embedded in the music on various levels. Do that many pieces that do latch themselves onto the sorts of subject matter we're talking about actually seem to have the desired effect on audiences?

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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Ron Dough
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« Reply #35 on: 12:53:07, 25-03-2007 »

At the risk of depoliticising your thread for a minute, Ian, how much even of a composer's musical intentions are wasted on his audience? Things he has laboured over for days go by in a flash; many listeners are never going to be aware of inverted themes and such like: how less likely is it that deeper questions embedded are going to be revealed to the majority of listeners?
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #36 on: 13:11:56, 25-03-2007 »

At the risk of depoliticising your thread for a minute, Ian, how much even of a composer's musical intentions are wasted on his audience? Things he has laboured over for days go by in a flash; many listeners are never going to be aware of inverted themes and such like: how less likely is it that deeper questions embedded are going to be revealed to the majority of listeners?

Well, almost for certain a lot of the processes involved in the composition are not going to be perceived in that form by the audience, but that doesn't make them wasted. They surely inform what the listener hears and what type of response they have to the work in question.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
George Garnett
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« Reply #37 on: 14:05:15, 25-03-2007 »

It does sometimes seem very difficult to win in your world, Ian  Cheesy.

If you write something as a response to some appalling event you first have to have undergo a check of your motives to establish (but how exactly?) that nothing untoward appears on the screen. ("I'm sorry, sir. I'm getting an ambiguous reading on 'Cashing in on emotional capital' here. And there was a very slight blip on 'Subconsciously hoping to get at least one performance with all the wealth, status and social acclaim that brings'. I must ask you to undergo a few further psychometric tests just to check your hidden motives are fully acceptable." )     

If you get through that then you are passed on to the appropriate inspectors to ensure that your emotional response, even if apparently genuine, is correctly calibrated relative to context. ("We have reason to believe you did not calculate correctly the historical and systemic economic circumstances which led indirectly to the event and that you failed to apportion blame and/or empathy in the authorised proportions. Would you mind stepping this way, sir.")

And if you manage to get through that one too, there's a Catch 22 coming up next.

'Were you thinking of makng any reference to the unfortunate event in the title of your work, sir?'

(a)  'Er, yes, .....a bit.'  "I'm very sorry, sir, but the event in question is one which everyone is predictably 'expected' to have a response to. The quota for that particular event has already been filled. A further self-promoting display of emotionalism would merely divert attention away from other unacceptable features of the world, almost certainly for discreditable neo-reactionary motives, and would hinder an active critique of the underlying structures which lead to such events." "But it's only one performance in the Conway Hall on a Sunday afternoon, officer." "I'm sorry, sir, the effect can nonetheless seep throught into the public consciousness at large and we wouldn't want to do anything to hinder the free progress of ultimately inevitable dialectical processes would we? I must ask you to step this way, sir."

or, alternatively

(b) "Er, no,.....I was thinking of calling it Parapluie...non....IV". "Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. An unprincipled retreat into the shallow faux-sophistication of unengaged aestheticism, eh? I'm afraid I must ask you to come with me, sir."

It's quite an obstacle course  Wink
       
« Last Edit: 14:11:22, 25-03-2007 by George Garnett » Logged
Ian Pace
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« Reply #38 on: 14:15:11, 25-03-2007 »

It does sometimes seem very difficult to win in your world, Ian  Cheesy.

If you write something as a response to some appalling event you first have to have undergo a check of your motives to establish (but how exactly?) that nothing untoward appears on the screen. ("I'm sorry, sir. I'm getting an ambiguous reading on 'Cashing in on emotional capital' here. And there was a very slight blip on 'Subconsciously hoping to get at least one performance with all the wealth, status and social acclaim that brings'. I must ask you to undergo a few further psychometric tests just to check your hidden motives are fully acceptable." )     

If you get through that then you are passed on to the appropriate inspectors to ensure that your emotional response, even if apparently genuine, is correctly calibrated relative to context. ("We have reason to believe you did not calculate correctly the historical and systemic economic circumstances which led indirectly to the event and that you failed to apportion blame and/or empathy in the authorised proportions. Would you mind stepping this way, sir.")

And if you manage to get through that one too, there's a Catch 22 coming up next.

'Were you thinking of makng any reference to the unfortunate event in the title of your work, sir?'

(a)  'Er, yes, .....a bit.'  "I'm very sorry, sir, but the event in question is one which everyone is predictably 'expected' to have a response to. The quota for that particular event has already been filled. A further self-promoting display of emotionalism would merely divert attention away from other unacceptable features of the world, almost certainly for discreditable neo-reactionary motives, and would hinder an active critique of the underlying structures which lead to such events." "But it's only one performance in the Conway Hall on a Sunday afternoon, officer." "I'm sorry, sir, the effect can nonetheless seep throught into the public consciousness at large and we would't want to do anything to hinder the free progress of ultimately inevitable dialectical processes would we? I must ask you to step this way, sir."

or, alternatively

(b) "Er, no,.....I was thinking of calling it Parapluie...non....IV". "Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. An unprincipled retreat into the shallow faux-sophistication of unengaged aestheticism, eh? I'm afraid I must ask you to come with me, sir."

It's quite an obstacle course  Wink
       

I'm rolling about in my seat here! Don't get me wrong, I'm not for a moment advocating any sort of censorious attitude, merely suggesting ways in which we might consider these types of works within a wider context, that's all. I remember when Schindler's List first came out (a film I can't stand, have probably mentioned it before), how there was a sense in which to criticise it, especially in terms of its extremely unimaginative approach to the very use of the cinematic medium and rendering of the Holocaust in the manner of yet another Hollywood weepie, there seemed to be some sense that to do so was to treat the subject matter in a callous fashion. That's ridiculous, just being about that subject doesn't make it a good film. Similarly, there are some comments in an essay by McClary concerning Babbitt's Philomel, employing similar emotional blackmail, when she says that for her female students, the subject-matter of rape is so harrowing as to render all formalist considerations of the work irrelevant (this used to justify an argument which says in essence that there is no legitimate way to engage with it other than to say about the experience it portrays 'isn't it terrible?'). And certainly some of the neo-romantic composers I mentioned earlier in the thread know, I reckon, that tagging their works onto various 'causes' gives them a certain immunity from other forms of criticism.
« Last Edit: 14:23:14, 25-03-2007 by Ian Pace » Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
richard barrett
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« Reply #39 on: 14:30:58, 25-03-2007 »

I'm afraid I must ask you to come with me, sir.
It's a fair cop, officer. Another way of looking at it would be: there would be something unnatural and possibly somehow dishonest to carry on one's work as an artist without (admitting the possibility of) external events impinging on that process in any way, even in a more or less intangible way, so an acknowledgement of that situation, with all its possible contradictions, might be a more appropriate response than an attempt to deny it.
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George Garnett
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« Reply #40 on: 14:46:42, 25-03-2007 »

I'm rolling about in my seat here!

Phew! That's a relief Smiley


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teleplasm
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« Reply #41 on: 15:21:09, 25-03-2007 »

I'm a bit puzzled by your choices, teleplasm. By the War Requiem for example ?

Benjamin Meyers is a new name to me - any info on him ?

I'm puzzled by your puzzlement. As surely everyone knows, the War Requiem is a lament for the slaughter of the First World War, using Wilfred Owen's wartime poems. Of course, Britten, being a pacifist, sought to imply that all war is wrong in any circumstances, but that was something attached to its ostensible purpose. If you can swallow some of the choices in the opening message, I can't see why you have trouble with this one.

I don't know much about Meyers' opera beyond the fact that its subject matter is Julius and Ethel Rosenberg (the two American Communists who gave Stalin the secret of the H-bomb), who are regarded as martyrs on the left, like Sacco and Vanzetti also, of course.

So Britten is "ambulance-chasing" some 40-odd years after the event ? Or are you simply unsympathetic to the idea of any form of "lament" ?

Well, 40 years is not a long time in history. (The Holocaust, which continues to generate new works, ended 62 years ago). But in fact, I'm very sympathetic to the idea of lament. After all, so much of early 20th Century English music was a lament for "the world we have lost", music that is regarded by some not so much as ambulance-chasing as backward-looking. I just hoped that someone (such as yourself) would throw a hissy fit when one of his own sacred cows got herded into Ian Pace's political corral.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #42 on: 15:24:13, 25-03-2007 »

But in fact, I'm very sympathetic to the idea of lament. After all, so much of early 20th Century English music was a lament for "the world we have lost", music that is regarded by some not so much as ambulance-chasing as backward-looking.

Did that world ever really exist?
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
autoharp
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« Reply #43 on: 15:38:07, 25-03-2007 »

 Quote from message 41 - I just hoped that someone (such as yourself) would throw a hissy fit when one of his own sacred cows got herded into Ian Pace's political corral.

What on earth are you talking about ? You do get out of your pram for no reason don't you ? You tried the hostile act on the Philippe de Vitry thread I remember.

Just WHAT IS YOUR BEEF TELEPLASM ?
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teleplasm
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« Reply #44 on: 15:42:05, 25-03-2007 »

But in fact, I'm very sympathetic to the idea of lament. After all, so much of early 20th Century English music was a lament for "the world we have lost", music that is regarded by some not so much as ambulance-chasing as backward-looking.

Did that world ever really exist?

If you mean "Was there ever a rural England?", the answer is obviously yes. But I surmise that what you really mean is that there was a rural England, but that it was a poverty-stricken, oppressive feudal society.
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