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martle
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« Reply #60 on: 18:26:38, 25-03-2007 » |
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What about a Schumannesque * * * ?
Or a Gerald Barryesque: “_____” (1979) 3cl(II&III+bcl)-2va.2vc-pno(+hpsch) “_____” (1987 version) version of “_____” (1979) for 2cl(+bcl)-va.vc-pno-marimba ‘Ø’ (1979) arranged for piano Quartet ‘Ø’ (1979) arranged for solo cello |
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Green. Always green.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #61 on: 21:15:05, 25-03-2007 » |
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But in fact, I'm very sympathetic to the idea of lament. After all, so much of early 20th Century English music was a lament for "the world we have lost", music that is regarded by some not so much as ambulance-chasing as backward-looking. Did that world ever really exist? If you mean "Was there ever a rural England?", the answer is obviously yes. But I surmise that what you really mean is that there was a rural England, but that it was a poverty-stricken, oppressive feudal society. Yes, or more simply it wasn't the Arcadian idyll that seems implied by quite a bit of that music. No, but it was still worth lamenting. I daresay even you might consider (for example) that having their own music was preferable to the commercially-fabricated music that has taken its place. No, not necessarily. |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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teleplasm
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« Reply #62 on: 23:27:41, 25-03-2007 » |
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But in fact, I'm very sympathetic to the idea of lament. After all, so much of early 20th Century English music was a lament for "the world we have lost", music that is regarded by some not so much as ambulance-chasing as backward-looking. Did that world ever really exist? If you mean "Was there ever a rural England?", the answer is obviously yes. But I surmise that what you really mean is that there was a rural England, but that it was a poverty-stricken, oppressive feudal society. Yes, or more simply it wasn't the Arcadian idyll that seems implied by quite a bit of that music. No, but it was still worth lamenting. I daresay even you might consider (for example) that having their own music was preferable to the commercially-fabricated music that has taken its place. No, not necessarily.  But in practice, or (as it were) contingently?.... |
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #63 on: 00:37:33, 26-03-2007 » |
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Well, as nice as this all is...
Doesn't this whole question bring up a further question: what is a title for and what purpose does it serve?
I seem to remember that this got some debate around the courts of tOP when Ades's Tevot was first mentioned but I thought that it might be a good plan to resurrect it.
Ian characterised the Penderecki Threnody as one of these Ambulance-chasing works, but I'm not convinced by that (actually I've not really liked the general tone of the thread which is why I've steered clear until now). Is there a difference between Penderecki's Hiroshima piece and that by Nono? Or is it that Nono set out to write a piece about Hiroshima, whereas Penderecki wrote the piece and only later on thought that it was an apt title?
That is a pretty crucial distinction, which gives the lie to the notion that Penderecki's piece is 'about' Hiroshima. I have some doubts about Nono's endeavours, however sincerely meant. The Hiroshima piece ( Canti di viti e d'amore: Sul Ponte di Hiroshima) may be a little problematic, though the piece as a whole is one of the most interesting essays of this type (part of the text by Günther Anders is not set but 'informs' pure orchestral writing, and it is a very beautiful text). I have bigger problems with Ricorda cosa ti hanno fatto in Auschwitz. Written at first as incidental music for Peter Weiss's play Die Ermittlung (The Investigation), which itself was written on the back of the Frankfurt Auschwitz Trials of 1963-65, Nono made very clear in his programme note his intention for the music: ‘what neither the word nor the staging could express and represent, had to be represented by the music: the millions of dead in the Nazi concentration camps’. There's something very presumptuous, even rather crass, about any composer believing that their music (or anyone else's) can possibly give voice to millions of slaughtered people in this manner. The piece is extraordinarily beautiful, but in the context of the explicit intentions for it, I find it hard to see how it goes much beyond being another 'lament'. |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #64 on: 00:43:43, 26-03-2007 » |
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(b) "Er, no,.....I was thinking of calling it Parapluie...non....IV". "Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. An unprincipled retreat into the shallow faux-sophistication of unengaged aestheticism, eh? I'm afraid I must ask you to come with me, sir."
Please don't get me wrong, when I attack aestheticism that should be not be equated with an attack on aesthetic 'autonomy'. I wouldn't even totally dismiss the concept of L'art pour l'art (the correspondence between Benjamin and Adorno on this subject, following on from Benjamin's positions in 'The Work of Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction', is fascinating, not least Adorno's defence of Mallarmé against Benjamin's objections), though it needs to be addressed dialectically. As an aesthetic ideology, aestheticism as I see it places artistic questions over and above human interests, thus in the name of aestheticism, dehumanisation of others is very much facilitated. Genuine aesthetic autonomy (from social function and/or reified consciousness) is a positive thing for art to aim for, I reckon - it's an ideal rather than a reality in many cases, which through their reiteration and reinforcement of sublimated aesthetic tropes which themselves are sedimented with a wider social history, are by no means 'autonomous'. |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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TimR-J
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« Reply #65 on: 09:24:02, 26-03-2007 » |
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Ian characterised the Penderecki Threnody as one of these Ambulance-chasing works, but I'm not convinced by that (actually I've not really liked the general tone of the thread which is why I've steered clear until now). Is there a difference between Penderecki's Hiroshima piece and that by Nono? Or is it that Nono set out to write a piece about Hiroshima, whereas Penderecki wrote the piece and only later on thought that it was an apt title? As someone who spends more time than most buried in Penderecki's music, it's up to me to clarify that the title change to Threnody, for the victims of Hiroshima wasn't (as Ollie's pointed out) Penderecki's suggestion; nor was it his publisher, but actually Roman Jasinski, musical director of Polish Radio at the time, who I believe suggested the change of title (after the work's first performance) to give it a better chance of success at the forthcoming ISCM. I'm still not sure how much such things matter though. Doesn't it come down to what we think such a piece of music is for? I mean, if there is a value of some sort to works that explicitly evoke great tragic events - however we might characterise this value (and presumably there is some such value, otherwise people wouldn't still be writing like this and we wouldn't still be listening) - does it actually matter what the intentions were at the start; or are the cumulative effects of the work, after the composer has released it into the world, more important? |
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time_is_now
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« Reply #66 on: 10:57:04, 26-03-2007 » |
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Or a Gerald Barryesque:
“_____” (1979)
3cl(II&III+bcl)-2va.2vc-pno(+hpsch)
“_____” (1987 version)
version of “_____” (1979) for 2cl(+bcl)-va.vc-pno-marimba
‘Ø’ (1979)
arranged for piano Quartet
‘Ø’ (1979)
arranged for solo cello
Ooh, that is very neatly copy-pasted from OUP's tidy little website, martle  One thing that's always bothered me about those Barry titles, though - in order to clarify that it is a weird title and not someone leaning heavily on a typewriter keyboard, they always end up getting put between quotation marks. All other titles manage with just italics. I am fussy aren't I  |
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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time_is_now
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« Reply #67 on: 11:03:12, 26-03-2007 » |
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As someone who spends more time than most buried in Penderecki's music, it's up to me to clarify that the title change to Threnody, for the victims of Hiroshima wasn't (as Ollie's pointed out) Penderecki's suggestion; nor was it his publisher, but actually Roman Jasinski, musical director of Polish Radio at the time Tim, didn't know you were particularly involved in Penderecki research. Would like to talk to you about Polish music some time. I got quite interested in certain things while reviewing Adrian Thomas's (badly flawed, IMHO) Polish music since Szymanowski for the MT a couple of years ago. One thing that does fascinate me about your message is your use of a comma in the Penderecki title. I've always read it the same way (or at least I assume this is the way you're reading it): 'Threnody' as the title, and then a (somewhat separate, detachable even?) line of dedication. 'For the victims of Hiroshima', or its Polish equivalent, is in smaller type in the original PWM score, IIRC. (I did check once.) Sorry to get so excited about a comma, although this does possibly cast the title in a slightly different light with respect to chasing of ambulances ... |
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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TimR-J
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« Reply #68 on: 12:06:09, 26-03-2007 » |
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t_i_n - apologies for over-exciting you - the comma was from memory and possibly incorrect. I don't own a copy of the score to check, but I've seen that title punctuated as many different ways as you can possibly imagine. I think they all (and mine was meant to) boil down to: Threnody (title), For/To the Victims... (subtitle). Oddly, one (Polish) book I have lists the piece as 'Ofiarom Hiroszimy - Tren', ie backwards.  (I've sent you message re. Polish music and my involvement in it) |
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time_is_now
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« Reply #69 on: 13:18:58, 26-03-2007 » |
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one (Polish) book I have lists the piece as 'Ofiarom Hiroszimy - Tren', ie backwards. Yes, I've seen that too. In fact, it may even be that Thomas cites it like that (though he's so inconsistent I wouldn't be surprised if that's one of about 3 options given on different pages of his book). (I've sent you message re. Polish music and my involvement in it) Got it! Thanks ... Hope to chat soon - maybe at the next one of these board drinks? And yes, the MT review was me. Can send you a PDF if you don't have easy access. |
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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teleplasm
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« Reply #70 on: 14:38:35, 26-03-2007 » |
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As an aesthetic ideology, aestheticism as I see it places artistic questions over and above human interests, thus in the name of aestheticism, dehumanisation of others is very much facilitated. That's a very tendentious definition. No aesthete would admit anything of the kind. He would say something of this sort, perhaps, that the intellectual pleasure to be derived from the contemplation of physical things (such as, in this present case, organised sounds) is more important to him than any wider social purpose such physical things may have. He could readily combine such an attitude with being a famine-relief worker. Your use of the word "dehumanisation" is especially objectionable. It trades on images of people in death-camps being forced to go about naked, or worked to death and then thrown away like refuse. Let's have a grudging little apology from you for trivialising the Holocaust.  |
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #71 on: 14:44:41, 26-03-2007 » |
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As an aesthetic ideology, aestheticism as I see it places artistic questions over and above human interests, thus in the name of aestheticism, dehumanisation of others is very much facilitated. That's a very tendentious definition. No aesthete would admit anything of the kind. He would say something of this sort, perhaps, that the intellectual pleasure to be derived from the contemplation of physical things (such as, in this present case, organised sounds) is more important to him than any wider social purpose such physical things may have. He could readily combine such an attitude with being a famine-relief worker. No, aestheticism as an ideology (as opposed to simply L'art pour l'art) goes further than that. It assigns the aesthetic primacy over the ethical. And you can find sentiments of that type from a huge number of late 19th/early 20th century artists (I can give you a list of some quotations if you like). Your use of the word "dehumanisation" is especially objectionable. It trades on images of people in death-camps being forced to go about naked, or worked to death and then thrown away like refuse. Let's have a grudging little apology from you for trivialising the Holocaust. You might find it objectionable, but I'm certainly not the first to explore that. Have a look in the camp thread, where this subject has been done to death. When vast swathes of the population are reduced to faceless masses, the feared opposite of the aesthete, you have dehumanisation. And quite a few of those artists literally advocated mass extermination. This is not trivialising the Holocaust by any means, the Holocaust becomes possible by the total subsumation of all human interests in favour of an aesthetic world-view based on mystical racial purity, however many millions have to be exterminated to achieve that. Try Frederic Spotts' excellent book Hitler and the Power of Aesthetics. |
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« Last Edit: 14:48:09, 26-03-2007 by Ian Pace »
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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teleplasm
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« Reply #72 on: 15:07:17, 26-03-2007 » |
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You appear to share the dehumanising fantasies of Marxist dramaturgs, which one could categorise as the Metropolis fantasy, after Fritz Lang's nonsensical film. Contesting this kind of stupidity, Nabokov once invited his readers to imagine a typical "faceless" clerk, sitting in an office all day alongside a roomful of other clerks, all dressed alike, lunching in a row at a sandwich-bar, perhaps, and then travelling home in cattletruck-like conditions to his little identical box of a home; but then, after his takeaway dinner, he sits down and writes fine poetry. How do you know what the "faceless masses" do in their private lives? To judge people solely by their social face is perhaps not the worst kind of dehumanisation (I indicated a much worse kind above), but it's a kind to which the Left is unfortunately addicted in its holier-than-thou way.
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TimR-J
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« Reply #73 on: 16:28:22, 26-03-2007 » |
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Can send you a PDF if you don't have easy access.
That would be great actually - I've just checked and JSTOR (or the bit I have access to) doesn't cover MT that recently. Thanks! |
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time_is_now
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« Reply #74 on: 16:30:36, 26-03-2007 » |
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Your email's hidden and mine's not!  Send me an email and I'll reply with the attachment? |
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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