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Author Topic: DEBUSSY: "Soulless and devoid of a true musical sense"?  (Read 1480 times)
Bryn
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« Reply #15 on: 10:11:03, 12-06-2007 »

Or from someone else:

"During his own lifetime Debussy was connected with the older Impressionism of the painters. Since that time, the idea of him as a musical Impressionist has become inseparable from his name. He himself was just as allergic to this word as Schoenberg was to the word "atonal." Only in a few works at most was Debussy truly an Impressionist, and in none was he a mood-painter, as the popular cliché would have it. Nevertheless Debussy's works, particularly the piano music of his middle period, are full of rhythmic power and dynamic impulses. The freedom of form (not to he mistaken for its dissolution) does not indicate a rhapsodic gliding-over from one bar to another or a loose improvisation on a couple of sounds or scraps of melody. To the contrary, everything is most carefully composed; every detail is minutely indicated. The compositional structure also has a high degree of organization in which several "voices," lines, or layers are combined over broad passages which, taken alone, lack a deeper meaning. They are not always easily recognizable, but a detailed analysis of these layers must precede any correct interpretation. Indeed they are of varying weight and varying importance. Therefore, they must be played in as differentiated a manner as possible."
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George Garnett
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« Reply #16 on: 10:29:37, 12-06-2007 »

IIRC many of the 'Impressionist' painters disliked being referred to in that way as well so Debussy is in good company Cheesy. The term was first coined as a sneer by a reviewer anyway I think.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #17 on: 10:48:46, 12-06-2007 »

I wonder if 'Impressionism' is any more meaningful a term than 'New Complexity'? Wink

However, there is no necessary contradiction between music that uses hazy or blurred sonorous combinations, in which themes, lines, progressions, etc. are hinted at rather than seeming fully explicit, and a composer knowing what they want the listener to hear. Any more than there is with a painter who chooses to avoid primary colours or immediately apparent figuration, who may still know what they want the viewer to see. Though intention isn't necessarily the point - the music or paintings in question can be equally powerful, just that they use different expressive means.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
pim_derks
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« Reply #18 on: 10:49:24, 12-06-2007 »

IIRC many of the 'Impressionist' painters disliked being referred to in that way as well so Debussy is in good company Cheesy. The term was first coined as a sneer by a reviewer anyway I think.

That's true, George: the name of the movement is derived from the title of the Claude Monet work Impression, soleil levant, which provoked the critic Louis Leroy to coin the term in a satiric review published in Le Charivari (Wikipedia).



Speaking of impressionism: I like impressionist literature, but I don't know if there are English impressionist writers. I once read that Ronald Firbank was an impressionist, but can only find some impressionism in the final pages of his novella Concerning the Eccentricities of Cardinal Pirelli. Does anyone know if there's more English impressionist literature?
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #19 on: 10:52:37, 12-06-2007 »

The compositional structure also has a high degree of organization in which several "voices," lines, or layers are combined over broad passages which, taken alone, lack a deeper meaning. They are not always easily recognizable, but a detailed analysis of these layers must precede any correct interpretation. Indeed they are of varying weight and varying importance. Therefore, they must be played in as differentiated a manner as possible."

I'm not necessarily convinced by the last sentence from that citation. When Debussy marks a line un peu en dehors he surely means something different from the maximum en dehors, which would be one way of producing 'as differentiated a manner as possible' (which can of course be achieved by other means as well as dynamics). Sometimes the differentiations are small and subtle, sometimes the sonorities are intended to be blended rather than clearly stratified.
« Last Edit: 10:56:27, 12-06-2007 by Ian Pace » Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
trained-pianist
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« Reply #20 on: 13:24:22, 12-06-2007 »

It took a long time for me to start to appreciate Debussy. May be his language was very difficult for someone like me who grew up with Mozart, Bach and Beethoven and perhaps Schostakovich, Prokofiev and Rachmaninoff.
While one doesn't understand a composer it is very important to be with people who really love his music because they infect you with their enthusiasm.
Now I love so many of his pieces that I am surprised.
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Chafing Dish
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« Reply #21 on: 14:29:34, 12-06-2007 »

I could post more concrete observations about the Preludes when I get to my scores again
Oh, please do, CD, in either this or a new thread. About L'Isle joyeuse, too, if you can bear to condescend to an ignoramus like me to whom even the pedantically clear isn't evident.

In the meantime (before you get to your scores), I'd love to know more about the 'harmonic major' scale, which I have to confess I've never heard of before.
Sorry to use the word pedantic -- perhaps it just seems pedantic in hindsight... I hope I didn't come across as a something-or-other among ignoramuses.

Harmonic major is like harmonic minor, except with a raised third degree, e.g. A-B-C#-D-E-F-G#-A

The paper that helped me best to figure out some of Debussy's harmonic thinking was by the aforementioned Dmitri Tymoczko of Princeton University. It is as yet unpublished, and 110 pages long (with diagrams and appendices, at any rate) -- I think he won't be offended if you skim! Also, don't expect a lot of "why", just a great deal of "what" and "how"... this is not atypical of music theory, and shouldn't be seen as a blemish.

http://music.princeton.edu/~dmitri/debussy.pdf

When I have my scores, I will offer a readers' digest version of a small amount of this, but just be clear as to where the credit should lie...
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increpatio
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« Reply #22 on: 19:14:41, 12-06-2007 »

Yes, that paper is very interesting; it's is very gratifying to know that Debussy could be as exhaustive when working within his particular musical framework (as meaningless as that might sound, it's not entirely so I think) as others were in theirs.

I remember getting a promise of a big argument over asking someone (or rather taking them up on their offer) to substantiate their claim that Debussy was the most important/influential (can't remember which term) writer for piano of all time (with Mr. Scriabin in second place).  But it never came to pass, alas!
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Chafing Dish
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« Reply #23 on: 19:51:12, 12-06-2007 »

Yes, that paper is very interesting; it's is very gratifying to know that Debussy could be as exhaustive when working within his particular musical framework (as meaningless as that might sound, it's not entirely so I think) as others were in theirs.

I remember getting a promise of a big argument over asking someone (or rather taking them up on their offer) to substantiate their claim that Debussy was the most important/influential (can't remember which term) writer for piano of all time (with Mr. Scriabin in second place).  But it never came to pass, alas!
Sounds entirely untenable to me. Lots of claims that end in "of all time" have that drawback.
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lovedaydewfall
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« Reply #24 on: 13:00:57, 13-06-2007 »

Debussy's music is by no means as bad as Stockhausen's, and the two should not be yoked together in the same breath. However, having said that, I must also say that Debussy does not do much for me. I think the only work of his that I really like is the String Quartet; perhaps some of the last sonatas, too. "Chafing Dish" made the absurd assertion that Debussy is regurgitated Delius. Anyone who really thinks that cannot have much of an ear for sophisticated harmony: Delius is a genius and his hugely broad and subtle palette of harmony reveals this. Debussy's harmonic palette is grossly impoverished by comparison, and I can almost agree with the epithet "soulless", but perhaps not quite "devoid of true musical sense". The other reason I don't like Debussy is that he is one of those composers whom the BBC has consistently over-exposed to a ludicrous extent, and hence created "listener-fatigue". The other main ones are Ravel, and Prokofiev.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #25 on: 13:06:11, 13-06-2007 »

We are interested to know whether, his rejection of the music notwithstanding, Member Grew feels any affinity with the types of provocative writings produced by Debussy under the pseudonym of 'Monsieur Croché'? We imagine that in some ways Member Grew that find a kindred spirit therein?
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
richard barrett
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« Reply #26 on: 13:31:15, 13-06-2007 »

"Chafing Dish" made the absurd assertion that Debussy is regurgitated Delius.

Where exactly did he make this absurd assertion?

Quote
Delius is a genius and his hugely broad and subtle palette of harmony reveals this. Debussy's harmonic palette is grossly impoverished by comparison

... and this assertion strikes me as definitely in need of some justification! I know very little Delius but to me it seems half-formed and insipid where Debussy is iridescent and vivid.


Quote
The other reason I don't like Debussy is that he is one of those composers whom the BBC has consistently over-exposed to a ludicrous extent, and hence created "listener-fatigue".

You aren't chained to your radio, though, are you? This seems like a particularly absurd reason not to like a particular composer's music.

Personally I don't know much about Debussy's work, although whenever I listen to or look at any of it I get the feeling that this should be put right at some point. I've been getting a great deal of enjoyment from Steven Osborne's recording of the Preludes. I've very rarely heard piano playing of such varied and differentiated colour. I also have to admit to a probably inappropriate fondness for the clarinet and saxophone rhapsodies and find it a shame he didn't write more for solo instrument with orchestra, and I do like those late sonatas, especially the one for violin, and Pelléas and most of the orchestral music. For some reason though I've never really thrown myself into this music in the way that I regularly do with, say, Stockhausen.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #27 on: 13:33:43, 13-06-2007 »

"Chafing Dish" made the absurd assertion that Debussy is regurgitated Delius. Anyone who really thinks that cannot have much of an ear for sophisticated harmony: Delius is a genius and his hugely broad and subtle palette of harmony reveals this. Debussy's harmonic palette is grossly impoverished by comparison, and I can almost agree with the epithet "soulless", but perhaps not quite "devoid of true musical sense". The other reason I don't like Debussy is that he is one of those composers whom the BBC has consistently over-exposed to a ludicrous extent, and hence created "listener-fatigue". The other main ones are Ravel, and Prokofiev.
I think CD said that Delius is regurgitated Debussy, not the other way round. Whether it's true or not, I think Delius is at best what Debussy called Wagner: 'a beautiful sunset mistaken for a dawn' (I don't agree with this for Wagner, by the way).

You can always turn the radio off, you know, loverday.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #28 on: 13:34:37, 13-06-2007 »

I am no big fan of the word "Impressionism" for Debussy, but it might be good for someone like Delius (regurgitated Debussy).
Yes, that's the one.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
time_is_now
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« Reply #29 on: 13:37:00, 13-06-2007 »

Sorry, Richard, we seem to have posted simultaneously.

Ian, it's Monsieur Croche, isn't it? No acute.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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