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Author Topic: DEBUSSY: "Soulless and devoid of a true musical sense"?  (Read 1480 times)
richard barrett
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« Reply #30 on: 13:40:13, 13-06-2007 »

Debussy's music is by no means as bad as Stockhausen's, and the two should not be yoked together in the same breath
Thinking about it, though, the orchestration and general flickering kind of textural movement in KS's Gruppen or Punkte have a certain something in common with Debussy's Jeux, if not his other orchestral music, don't they? And I'm sure Stockhausen would have studied that Debussy piece closely, as of course did Pierre Boulez.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #31 on: 13:40:37, 13-06-2007 »

I'd like to put a word in here for the Études for piano, startling works. The (very different) recordings of these by Rosen, Gieseking, Jacobs and Uchida are all very well-worth hearing.

With respect to the Preludes, I'm not fussed on Osborne's approach personally, but would like to draw people's attention to Alain Planès's recording on Harmonia Mundi, on a turn of the century Bechstein (a piano Debussy particularly loved). Also to both of Gieseking's recordings of the works. And Michelangeli playing the Images and Children's Corner (less so his Preludes).

Did Ginette Neveu ever record the Debussy Violin Sonata?
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Ian Pace
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« Reply #32 on: 13:41:35, 13-06-2007 »

Ian, it's Monsieur Croche, isn't it? No acute.
Yes, it is - my mistake.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Ian Pace
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« Reply #33 on: 13:43:46, 13-06-2007 »

What are anyone's favourite recordings of Pelleas? I only have one at the moment, the Abbado - surprisingly so as it's one of my favourite operas of all time! Never really investigated all the early recordings of it yet - any thoughts?
« Last Edit: 13:46:30, 13-06-2007 by Ian Pace » Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
time_is_now
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« Reply #34 on: 14:05:43, 13-06-2007 »

With respect to the Preludes, I'm not fussed on Osborne's approach personally, but would like to draw people's attention to Alain Planès's recording on Harmonia Mundi, on a turn of the century Bechstein (a piano Debussy particularly loved).
Really?! I've never listened, actually, but Planès is generally regarded round here as pretty much DOA. I assume he sells in France, but we can't do a thing with him in the UK (though his Debussy does marginally better than his Schubert).
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #35 on: 14:08:25, 13-06-2007 »

With respect to the Preludes, I'm not fussed on Osborne's approach personally, but would like to draw people's attention to Alain Planès's recording on Harmonia Mundi, on a turn of the century Bechstein (a piano Debussy particularly loved).
Really?! I've never listened, actually, but Planès is generally regarded round here as pretty much DOA. I assume he sells in France, but we can't do a thing with him in the UK (though his Debussy does marginally better than his Schubert).
Probably not the type of playing that would make such an impact with British listeners, I suppose, but I like it very much. Schubert is OK, Janácek very fine. Debussy Études (on a modern instrument) are OK, though perhaps not amongst the best, Preludes are really wonderful (one of my favourite recordings of them), though.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
time_is_now
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« Reply #36 on: 14:18:27, 13-06-2007 »

Thanks Ian. I'll certainly investigate.
« Last Edit: 16:55:43, 22-06-2007 by time_is_now » Logged

The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
George Garnett
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« Reply #37 on: 14:52:13, 13-06-2007 »

I also have to admit to a probably inappropriate fondness for the clarinet and saxophone rhapsodies....

A (relatively) rare opportunity to hear the Clarinet Rhapsody in the flesh at the Barbican tomorrow evening: Andrew Marriner/LSO/Gergiev - for those for whom the name Gergiev isn't totally off-putting. (Combined with Les Noces and an (even rarer) chance to hear Prokofiev's October Cantata in the flesh).

On Pelleas, I wouldn't presume to offer a comparative recommendation, not least because I haven't heard that many Smiley, but the old Ansermet LPs were my benchmark for years and, rightly or wrongly, I still tend to think of it as 'the' recording. Have also got a great deal (though I know it divides people) from the Boulez/Stein/WNO DVD. One of the very few exceptions to my rule of thumb that I don't really get on with opera DVDs.
« Last Edit: 15:00:24, 13-06-2007 by George Garnett » Logged
richard barrett
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« Reply #38 on: 15:38:04, 13-06-2007 »

Probably not the type of playing that would make such an impact with British listeners, I suppose
... which would be what type of playing? I can see that you might find Osborne a bit too, er, impressionistic, but what impresses me is that everything in the score is considered and given its own weight and colour, nothing is perfunctory or washed over (or dried out), and the degree of rhythmical "freedom" seems to me just right.

I wouldn't at all mind hearing the concert you mention, George, if I weren't sweating it out in Germany putting things in boxes. Gergiev in the October Cantata and Les Noces would have to be worth hearing, not sure about the Debussy (I'm listening to the Boulez recording as I write) but there isn't that much in it to go wrong if the clarinettist knows what he/she is doing. I just found I don't own a recording of the saxophone one though... must put that right very soon.

Etudes... yes, most impressive too, though not a form I'm generally that enamoured of.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #39 on: 15:46:02, 13-06-2007 »

Probably not the type of playing that would make such an impact with British listeners, I suppose
... which would be what type of playing? I can see that you might find Osborne a bit too, er, impressionistic, but what impresses me is that everything in the score is considered and given its own weight and colour, nothing is perfunctory or washed over (or dried out), and the degree of rhythmical "freedom" seems to me just right.
No, not to do with it being 'impressionistic' (so is Gieseking), just being more about surface detail than emotional heart - doesn't move me in the way that Planès and many others do. Planès doesn't wear his interpretative strategies on his sleeve, in general, which probably wouldn't go down so well with audiences wanting to be dazzled in that respect. But overall I find British performers on all instruments tend to make Debussy into essentially a colouristic kaleidoscope, as well as sounding very calculated. Have you heard Debussy's own (very few) recordings/rolls? Very very different approach. Also very fond of the Debussy of Samson François or Zoltan Kocsis.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
richard barrett
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« Reply #40 on: 15:58:57, 13-06-2007 »

overall I find British performers on all instruments tend to make Debussy into essentially a colouristic kaleidoscope, as well as sounding very calculated. Have you heard Debussy's own (very few) recordings/rolls?
Here we are back at "the composer's intentions", aren't we? Let me say, in my British kind of way, that for me two of the most interesting things about Debussy's music are indeed its colouristic and calculated aspects. I don't really find it that emotional or "moving" whoever's playing it. (I seem to be answering my own earlier question about why I've never come to know the music better despite having a certain admiration for it.)
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #41 on: 16:26:46, 13-06-2007 »

overall I find British performers on all instruments tend to make Debussy into essentially a colouristic kaleidoscope, as well as sounding very calculated. Have you heard Debussy's own (very few) recordings/rolls?
Here we are back at "the composer's intentions", aren't we?
The question of 'intentions' in the context of the Stockhausen thread was to do with a possible discrepancy between what a composer intends something to achieve, and what it actually does achieve. A very different issue from how a composer plays their own music (which certainly shouldn't necessarily be seen as 'definitive', though).
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Chafing Dish
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« Reply #42 on: 16:46:17, 13-06-2007 »

"Chafing Dish" made the absurd assertion that Debussy is regurgitated Delius. Anyone who really thinks that cannot have much of an ear for sophisticated harmony: Delius is a genius and his hugely broad and subtle palette of harmony reveals this. Debussy's harmonic palette is grossly impoverished by comparison.
A composer resorts to a broad palette when they can't make very much out of a small one. I find Delius terribly insipid and thin, like a Monet poster in a dentist's office. But it wasn't his fault, he just never had dental problems, I gather. From your phrase "grossly impoverished" I take it we're beyond the point of trying to change your mind. Plus I don't feel much like it. Must have left my ear for sophistication at home. But my ear for sophistry remains ultra-keen!
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #43 on: 16:53:27, 13-06-2007 »

I don't really find it that emotional or "moving" whoever's playing it.

Try a passage like the following from Et la lune descend sur le temple qui fut from the second book of piano Images.



Much of the piece consists of varying forms of 'processional' series of chords, sometimes parallel dissonant chords combining the root, fourth and fifth of a scale, sometimes triads - the latter generating a greater sense of distance and objectification to my ears. But from within this auratic world, Debussy extracts or superimposes moments of highly intimate (though understated) lyricism. Never using the more conventional resolution of a fourth onto the third of a scale, Debussy from bar 35 (and earlier in bar 16) instead uses the more askew resolution of the augmented fourth onto the third, more of a contrived resolution through the omission of the intervening fourth degree. The sense of distance is continued by the resolution of dominant seventh chords not onto the tonic but onto a distorted chord on the fourth, at that time a radical progression (and which in any time causes a blurring of any tonal sense, then through the use of chromatic half-steps within a whole-tone harmony (bars 37-38) before leading back to the 'processional'. Anyhow, all of this creates a context in which bar 41 achieves a high level of prominence (approached via a pedal B-flat and a G# major triad, so that, enharmonically, the B-flat becomes a ninth of an A-flat triad (but without the seventh), then can seem to resolve onto the implied fifth degree of D major, somewhat softening what would otherwise be a tritone shift. Bars 41-42, in part through their hushed and brief quality as well as the tonal resolution (with the extravagance of the extra harmonic colouration supplied by the melody), to me communicate a huge sense of yearning, an apparition if one likes, by these means, a moment of warmth and relief which would not be the same without the context (to some extent this is anticipated in bars 27-28). Other triadic harmonies are mostly approached via parallel chords; when one is not its impact is all the more striking.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
roslynmuse
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« Reply #44 on: 18:03:31, 13-06-2007 »

Interesting thread, and some valuable contributions. My own experience of Debussy is that the works that I get closest to, either by performing them or studying them, rarely seem as interesting when I listen to them. Perhaps he creates a world that is too personal, that convinces more with intimate, first-hand, familiarity but leaves the listener who is simply a listener a little way behind? The strongest works - L'apres-midi, La mer, L'isle joyeuse - have gestures writ large enough; I love Jeux, Pelleas, the Preludes and Sonatas and many of the songs but only when I've been close to them and relearnt the language.

What Debussy did was to transform the way we perceive gesture in music and the significance of the single chord or note. (Quite as much as Webern, I think.) And contrary to some views expressed here, his orchestration is anything but vague and "impressionistic"... (Iberia???) As far as my views on Delius go, please refer to the Delius thread (if you are interested!). Suffice it to say that I enjoy his music (some of it) too, don't find it remotely like Debussy, but it isn't trying to do the same thing anyway.

Now I'm really going to stick my neck out and say that I believe Ravel was a greater composer than Debussy! (Sorry to bring him into it, it's not because I think there are many similarities between the two composers, just because I wanted to say that!)
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