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Ian Pace
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« on: 18:09:21, 13-06-2007 » |
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Now I'm really going to stick my neck out and say that I believe Ravel was a greater composer than Debussy! (Sorry to bring him into it, it's not because I think there are many similarities between the two composers, just because I wanted to say that!) What are anyone else's thoughts on this?  |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #1 on: 18:22:48, 13-06-2007 » |
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I don't like to compare composers. Debussy wrote a lot of good music. I particularly like his violin and piano sonata that he wrote in the last year of his life.
However, I have to agree that at least in piano music I consider Ravel perhaps is better.
But I am not entirely sure.
I love Debussy Preludes and Studies.
Should we compare Poulenc, Debussy and Ravel?
I recently learn much about Poulenc and as a result rate him much higher than before recently.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #2 on: 18:25:43, 13-06-2007 » |
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I know even less about Ravel than I do about Debussy, and I don't like it that much, but I dare say I will be in a minority here.
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« Last Edit: 18:40:21, 13-06-2007 by richard barrett »
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autoharp
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« Reply #3 on: 19:16:38, 13-06-2007 » |
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(Greater ? No, let's not discuss what that means here !)
I much prefer listening to Ravel, especially the piano music.
Richard - Daphnis + Chloe is well worth a listen ! Without doubt, one of the major early 20th century orchestral scores.
Some of the old generalisations still hold some validity: Debussy used few chords that wouldn't be found in Liszt, but their context is changed. Ravel's harmonic movement is more bound by tradition, but some of the harmony itself was ground-breaking. (Comments ?)
On string quartets, Ravel wins hands down.
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #4 on: 19:18:48, 13-06-2007 » |
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I agree with autoharp.
If we are to compare them we should compare them by genre.
For example: opera, ballet, symphony (orchestral works), quartets, piano, other chamber music.
This is really difficut task to compare the two.
I think I am going to give up.
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Chafing Dish
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« Reply #5 on: 19:20:17, 13-06-2007 » |
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Debussy did not write Daphnis et Chloe
Ravel did not write Pelleas et Melisande.
Thus both composers were quite deficient.
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autoharp
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« Reply #6 on: 19:22:40, 13-06-2007 » |
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That's helpful !
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #7 on: 19:22:58, 13-06-2007 » |
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like your point Chafing Dish. I would say it is a draw. They both are great composers.
I find that for piano Debussy is easier to play (if I may say so). Some of Ravel pieces are not possible for me to play at the moment.
I would say that Ravel is more difficult technically than Debussy (at least some of his pieces are more difficult than Debussy piano pieces).
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eruanto
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« Reply #8 on: 19:35:28, 13-06-2007 » |
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I would say that Ravel is more difficult technically than Debussy (at least some of his pieces are more difficult than Debussy piano pieces). hum. Ravel's piano music seems more "pattern-based" and therefore fiddly than Debussy's, so yes it certainly looks harder than Debussy on the page, but (using Une Barque sur l'Ocean as an example) once one has learned a little bit of it a surprising amount of the rest of the piece becomes much easier. |
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« Last Edit: 19:37:21, 13-06-2007 by eruanto »
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Chafing Dish
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« Reply #9 on: 19:36:37, 13-06-2007 » |
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That's helpful !
It wasn't meant to be helpful, it was meant to be sarcastic. Sorry it came across as helpful.  |
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richard barrett
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« Reply #10 on: 19:38:20, 13-06-2007 » |
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Richard - Daphnis + Chloe is well worth a listen ! Without doubt, one of the major early 20th century orchestral scores. Yes, you're right, I was forgetting about that piece. Some of the old generalisations still hold some validity: Debussy used few chords that wouldn't be found in Liszt, but their context is changed. Ravel's harmonic movement is more bound by tradition, but some of the harmony itself was ground-breaking. (Comments ?) I haven't heard that particular generalisation before. Nor do I know enough Ravel (or Debussy or Liszt) to make detailed comparisons of their respective harmonic style. (Maybe I don't know enough about harmony either!) What strikes me is that Debussy's forms are much more fluid, partly because his use of thematic material is more allusive (and elusive) than explicit. On string quartets, Ravel wins hands down.
Time for me to do some homework I think. |
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Chafing Dish
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« Reply #11 on: 19:40:54, 13-06-2007 » |
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More seriously, there are a number of neglected works by both composers. Those Rhapsodies have already been mentioned, but does anyone know Ravel's Piano Trio and his Duo for Violin and Cello? Both pieces show skills that Ravel didn't reveal anywhere else.
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eruanto
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« Reply #12 on: 19:42:41, 13-06-2007 » |
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Ravel's piano trio (or a snippet thereof) was played in one of my seminar lessons last year as a guessing-game. We all thought it was Shostakovich....  . dreadful. |
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« Last Edit: 19:52:45, 13-06-2007 by eruanto »
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #13 on: 19:48:50, 13-06-2007 » |
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I played Irish songs to some Irish children and they thought it was chinese. May be because of the modes. That is dreadful too.
Indeed, I don't know these pieces.
I don't consider myself an expert in Frencd reperoire.
The only piece by Ravel that I attempted and learnt for myself (not public) performance by heart etc. is Jeux D'eau.
I am afraid I only played Arabesks by Debussy and a few Preludes (Preludes for myself only).
I just looked for what I have in the house by both composers and found out that I have Ravel Valse (choreographic poem), Russian edition of 1982. It was sent to me. At first I thought that it is famous Sentimental Walse, but it is not. It says there that it is transcription for piano by Ravel.
Everyday there are surprises.
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thompson1780
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« Reply #14 on: 19:53:14, 13-06-2007 » |
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No no - the piano trio is really good. Very hard, but astonishing if performed well.
I like mother goose, largely because of the comic contrabassoon in beauty and the beast, but the othe movements are beautiful.
The g minor piano concerto is very good, as is the left hand one (organic and dark)
And I like la valse.... Sorry
Tommo
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Made by Thompson & son, at the Violin & c. the West end of St. Paul's Churchyard, LONDON
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