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oliver sudden
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« Reply #15 on: 10:24:31, 05-08-2007 » |
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twentieth century composers beginning with 'S'.
Fortunately Shostakovich can also begin with a C, an X or a W so I think we're in the clear there. |
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #16 on: 11:27:33, 05-08-2007 » |
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I'm extremely uncomfortable with Schnittke's music. I've played plenty, sometimes in collaboration with those for whom it was written, and certainly audiences like it, but it seems to me to work like the vilest rock music in the way it seeks to manipulate an audiences' response. Rather like the deplorable Shostakovitch, in fact. Well, I know exactly what you mean by manipulative music, though wouldn't tar all rock music with that brush necessarily, and wondered whether you think what you describe is true of Shostakovich in general, or maybe just of some of his more bombastic symphonies (OK - that's quite a lot of them). Is he any worse in this respect than Wagner or Stravinsky, though? Schoenberg, and before him Brahms and Schumann and others, seem to be the polar opposite of this tactic, composing according to their own inner senses of necessity, or simply convictions in terms of the immanent demands of the piece, rather than calculatedly attempting to produce certain responses en masse from audiences (a refusal to do the latter may be a root cause of the situation Schoenberg describes in his essay 'How One Becomes Lonely'). Would you agree? By the way, do keep posting whatever thoughts, opinions you believe, others should be grown up enough to deal with perspectives very different from their own. Some would like a board like this to adhere to a certain group think and exclude anything that lies outside a particular narrow consensus, which may accord with English decorum, but doesn't make for more searching debates. |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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ahinton
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« Reply #17 on: 19:41:22, 05-08-2007 » |
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Some would like a board like this to adhere to a certain group think and exclude anything that lies outside a particular narrow consensus, which may accord with English decorum, but doesn't make for more searching debates.
Well, "English decorum" doesn't cut the mustard with Scots folk like me any more than it probably does with a distinguished Welsh member of this forum (or indeed any of its non-British member, I imagine). We (sorry!) would certainly not like to witness narrow consensuses here, even if the subject is a certain other composer whose name begins with "S"... Best, Alistair |
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thompson1780
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« Reply #18 on: 19:55:04, 05-08-2007 » |
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My taste only, of course........
.....If my views are not welcome I'll happily keep them to myself!
Poiv, Erm, I think it's OK to express your opinions/views, and indeed your taste. I wouldn't like a new member to think there is any such censorship here. But do be prepared to have unsubstantiated dismissal of composers challenged. (I don't think Ron was suggesting you should keep your opinion to yourself, just that you should be prepared to be challenged on it.......) And by the way, there is at least one other member who has a very low opinion of Shostakovitch. I'm sure you'll meet him soon Tommo |
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Made by Thompson & son, at the Violin & c. the West end of St. Paul's Churchyard, LONDON
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #19 on: 19:56:35, 05-08-2007 » |
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Quite, so, Tommo, thank you.
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #20 on: 19:59:27, 05-08-2007 » |
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(or indeed any of its non-British member, I imagine). Bloody oath, mate. Er, Tommo, you too. Too right. Yeah. Cobber. |
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pim_derks
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« Reply #21 on: 20:18:07, 05-08-2007 » |
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Perhaps this is not the most suitable place for starting a rather different discussion but I have to say that one of the reasons for loosing my sympathy for Shostakovich is the fact that his music is being programmed quite a lot (at least in the Netherlands). I had the same experience with Mahler and with Bach. Especially Mahler is a composer whose music I don't want to hear very often because he didn't write that many pieces. In my opinion, a performance of a Shostakovich symphony should be something special and not something regular. I'm sorry for my bad English. I'm tired and I want to go to bed.  |
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"People hate anything well made. It gives them a guilty conscience." John Betjeman
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #22 on: 20:47:07, 05-08-2007 » |
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The criticisms that are sometimes made of the music of Kagel - that it is simply 'meta-music', music about other music that has no meaning (and would be incomprehensible) other than in those terms, that it is calculated and cynical, and heavily reliant on handed-down effects as opposed to presenting anything more subjective or intimate - ring much truer to me in what I have heard of Schnittke (and some Shostakovich) than in Kagel. OK, to choose which segments of others' music to select, where to draw the boundaries, and what to juxtapose them with, does entail some subjective decisions; personally I want rather more than that in a composition. Not all Schnittke is like that, I know, but he does rely heavily on such devices which seem so 'easy'.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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Poivrade
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« Reply #23 on: 21:25:57, 05-08-2007 » |
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I'm extremely uncomfortable with Schnittke's music. I've played plenty, sometimes in collaboration with those for whom it was written, and certainly audiences like it, but it seems to me to work like the vilest rock music in the way it seeks to manipulate an audiences' response. Rather like the deplorable Shostakovitch, in fact. Well, I know exactly what you mean by manipulative music, though wouldn't tar all rock music with that brush necessarily, and wondered whether you think what you describe is true of Shostakovich in general, or maybe just of some of his more bombastic symphonies (OK - that's quite a lot of them). Is he any worse in this respect than Wagner or Stravinsky, though? Schoenberg, and before him Brahms and Schumann and others, seem to be the polar opposite of this tactic, composing according to their own inner senses of necessity, or simply convictions in terms of the immanent demands of the piece, rather than calculatedly attempting to produce certain responses en masse from audiences (a refusal to do the latter may be a root cause of the situation Schoenberg describes in his essay 'How One Becomes Lonely'). Would you agree? I would agree-and I find things like the last quartets and the viola sonata just as empty and manipulative as the more bombastic symphonies-so little content and so much time, the endless whingeing of someone who in the end did better than most from a system that whatever its vile faults treated musicians like himself quite well. I had quite an interesting discussion with some older Albanian composers recently, who had exactly the same perspective. |
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Poivrade
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« Reply #24 on: 21:43:18, 05-08-2007 » |
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My taste only, of course........
.....If my views are not welcome I'll happily keep them to myself!
Poiv, Erm, I think it's OK to express your opinions/views, and indeed your taste. I wouldn't like a new member to think there is any such censorship here. But do be prepared to have unsubstantiated dismissal of composers challenged. (I don't think Ron was suggesting you should keep your opinion to yourself, just that you should be prepared to be challenged on it.......) And by the way, there is at least one other member who has a very low opinion of Shostakovitch. I'm sure you'll meet him soon Tommo The level of knowledge and understanding seems very high on this board, so I sort of assume most people know what I'm talking about even if they don't agree. I'm delighted to be challenged on any opinion I might hold, particularly as I think the notion of opinions in general is rather overrated! |
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #25 on: 21:46:17, 05-08-2007 » |
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Er, yes.
Don't take this the wrong way but I'd much rather hear what you like!
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autoharp
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« Reply #26 on: 22:19:27, 05-08-2007 » |
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I would agree-and I find things like the last quartets and the viola sonata just as empty and manipulative as the more bombastic symphonies-so little content and so much time, the endless whingeing of someone who in the end did better than most from a system that whatever its vile faults treated musicians like himself quite well. I had quite an interesting discussion with some older Albanian composers recently, who had exactly the same perspective.
Poivrade, I'd be interested to hear a lot more about the views of the Albanian composers to whom you refer. |
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Poivrade
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« Reply #27 on: 22:35:13, 05-08-2007 » |
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I get the impression that Shostakovich's woe-laden grandstanding didn't go down at all well with people who were struggling against infinitely greater odds, and that this perception was rather common among composers of the old eastern bloc. It wasn't a particularly profound conversation owing to language difficulties, but it was very thought provoking.
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Chichivache
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The artiste formerly known as Gabrielle d’Estrées
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« Reply #28 on: 12:29:52, 06-08-2007 » |
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I'm extremely uncomfortable with Schnittke's music. I've played plenty, sometimes in collaboration with those for whom it was written, and certainly audiences like it, but...it seeks to manipulate an audiences' response. You lost me here Old Fruit. Surely all music - classical, rock, nursery rhymes - is intended by the composer to elicit a response from the audience. Otherwise why not just read them the telephone directory? |
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wotthehell toujours gai archy
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George Garnett
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« Reply #29 on: 20:21:00, 06-08-2007 » |
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the endless whingeing of someone who in the end did better than most from a system that whatever its vile faults treated musicians like himself quite well. I suppose it is possible that Shostakovich's irksome 'whingeing' related to other people's suffering as well as his own. Some people do that. |
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