The Radio 3 Boards Forum from myforum365.com
06:52:25, 02-12-2008 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Whilst we happily welcome all genuine applications to our forum, there may be times when we need to suspend registration temporarily, for example when suffering attacks of spam.
 If you want to join us but find that the temporary suspension has been activated, please try again later.
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  

The Radio 3 Boards > The Music Boards > Music Through The Ages > 20th Century > The Schnittke Thread
Pages: 1 2 3 [4]
« previous next »
  Print  
Author Topic: The Schnittke Thread  (Read 1419 times)
Al Moritz
**
Posts: 57
« Reply #45 on: 02:25:35, 22-08-2007 »
Quote from: richard barrett on 22:55:54, 21-08-2007
Al, thanks for your comments.

You're welcome, and thanks for your post.

Quote
I must say that I find Schnittke's music problematic, but in a way which somehow makes me want to understand more about what lies behind it. In general I have little sympathy with the idea of "polystylism", but I think that Schnittke's music is disturbing on a deeper level than this: it seems sometimes to consist of the most extravagantly maudlin gestures and references, but sometimes I also have the impression that this feature is a surface beneath which a vast equivocation and ambiguity is lurking.

Exactly right.

You mention Shostakovich: Interesting how this, supposedly straightforwardly "manipulative", composer completely subverts the idea of the "triumphant finale" in the finale of the 5th symphony. At first I did not realize it, and it took me a few listens to "get" it and only after some exposure to Mahler (at the time I was new to classical music, however). I don't claim that Schnittke works the same way as this music though.
Logged
Ian Pace
Temporary Restriction
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 4190
« Reply #46 on: 02:27:27, 22-08-2007 »
Quote from: George Garnett on 22:42:04, 21-08-2007
What I was agreeing with (I think!) was Al's objection to equating "intended to elicit an emotional response" with manipulation or propaganda in this derogatory sense. As far as I can see, "eliciting an emotional response" is what successful expression and communication does. Manipulation and propaganda is a dodgy subset of that  -  but not to be equated with the whole thing.
Eugenie Schumann recalled in her memoirs her mother Clara saying of Robert's music that it was 'full of feeling but never sentimental'. That to me is a very important distinction which I think to some extent mirrors what you are articulating above. Feeling is not simply a deluxe brand of sentiment, though sentiment can of course be 'inner' as well. But I think she was referring to the type of sentimental music of her time which looked to induce a specific sentiment in its listeners (which she hated, just as she hated the audience-wowing strategies of Liszt, though personally I think she was driven by rivalry to overlook the many other aspects of his music and playing; also Liszt was continually disillusioned by such things himself), rather than articulating more individuated feelings.

Communication is not just about seeking to produce a reaction in others; it can equally be a matter of empathy. And empathy is a vital part of the listening experience to me.
Logged
'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Al Moritz
**
Posts: 57
« Reply #47 on: 03:06:49, 22-08-2007 »
I wrote:
“Well, the joyousness of the Bach Gloria, in particular the last part “Cum Sancto Spiritu” is absolutely unambiguous.”

Quote from: Ian Pace on 02:08:14, 22-08-2007
Well, I don't hear it that way - for all it inhabits a general musical/expressive space that is relatively clear, the music maintains its own inner logic and development, rather than simply 'filling in' and bolstering a generalised effect.

Yes, but I don’t see why one excludes the other. The joyousness is  still unambiguous, in my view. However, when you say that “the music maintains its own inner logic and development”: this is exactly what I value in Schnittke’s music so much as well, where this happens at all times too (or practically at all times; at the moment I cannot think of any exception).
Logged
Al Moritz
**
Posts: 57
« Reply #48 on: 03:20:10, 22-08-2007 »
Ian,

When I come to think of it: following the strong "inner logic and development" of Schnittke's music often makes me forget the emotional message. Also in this sense his music is ambiguous, since you can pay attention to it on several levels (at least two that is). If you mean something like that for the Gloria of Bach's Mass as well, yes, in that sense I could agree with you that its message (but not its joyousness) is ambiguous too.
Logged
Al Moritz
**
Posts: 57
« Reply #49 on: 03:59:31, 22-08-2007 »
Quote from: Ian Pace on 02:27:27, 22-08-2007
But I think she was referring to the type of sentimental music of her time which looked to induce a specific sentiment in its listeners (which she hated, just as she hated the audience-wowing strategies of Liszt, though personally I think she was driven by rivalry to overlook the many other aspects of his music and playing; also Liszt was continually disillusioned by such things himself), rather than articulating more individuated feelings.

Yes, many people think Liszt just consists of glitz and surface, but this is not true of this terrific composer. Lately I have been listening frequently to Deuxième Année de Pèlerinage: Italie, and it is marvelous music. The majority of the pieces there actually follow a strict inner logic, and those that apparently don't do seductively approximate it in their gestural language.
« Last Edit: 04:01:22, 22-08-2007 by Al Moritz » Logged
Peter Grimes
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 212
« Reply #50 on: 12:21:18, 18-09-2007 »
Brace yourselves for wall-to-wall Alfred Harrievich next year to commemorate the tenth anniversary of his death.

For a while I thought polystylism was a way forward, now it seems like only Schnittke could really carry it off and it has died with him.

I'd love to see Gesualdo staged.
Logged
"On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog."
Pages: 1 2 3 [4]
  Print  
« previous next »
 
Jump to: