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The Radio 3 Boards > The Music Boards > Music Through The Ages > 20th Century > Erik Satie: Vexations etc.
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Author Topic: Erik Satie: Vexations etc.  (Read 854 times)
autoharp
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« on: 12:03:57, 12-08-2007 »
There has been very little reference to Erik Satie in this forum. Surprising really, considering that he is still a controversial and misunderstood figure. I'd be interested to know the level of support and interest amongst members. According to Cage he was/is "indispensible"; and to Messiaen "useless for my purposes" . . .

I'll start the ball rolling with Vexations, which appears below. It was composed in 1893 (no apologies for posting this in 20th century - it seemed a better option than in Classic and Romantic). There are a number of articles available - I've linked to a couple below. It may be worth mentioning at the outset that, contrary to popular opinion, Satie does not instruct the performer to play the music 840 times. Nor is the notation of accidentals as ludicrous as first appears (see Orledge's article for an explanation).

It may be, of course, that there are those who don't take this piece seriously . . .



http://www.af.lu.se/~fogwall/articl11.html

http://www.users.waitrose.com/~chobbs/Bryars.html
« Last Edit: 12:06:59, 12-08-2007 by autoharp » Logged
roslynmuse
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« Reply #1 on: 15:12:05, 12-08-2007 »
At best - and I don't apologise for referring by that to the Gymnopedies, as well as the Gnossiennes, Sarabandes, the cafe-concert songs, etc - timeless!

Much of the "middle-period" stuff I find bland, dull and unmemorable, despite the attractive annotations and titles.

Socrate - I still haven't made up my mind whether this is a work of genius or the dullest piece of all time...

I like his writings.

I'd also recommend Roger Nichols' Satie Remembered.
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Jonathan
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« Reply #2 on: 15:28:30, 12-08-2007 »
Interestingly, I've just bought John Cage's 2 piano arrangement of Socrate - but only because it was on a disc with the 4 hands version of Liszt's Via Crucis...
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Jonathan
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roslynmuse
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« Reply #3 on: 15:54:25, 12-08-2007 »
MMM - Sounds a tempting purchase, Jonathan!
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Kittybriton
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Thank you for the music ...


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« Reply #4 on: 21:51:46, 12-08-2007 »
I may be the only one here, but Satie is someone about whom I feel as if I know almost nothing; he wrote in green ink, often without barlines, wore a velvet suit, and wrote music that seems positively surreal and yet poignantly beautiful, almost half a lifetime before the surrealist movement published its first manifesto.
Does anybody else feel intimidated by the possibility of exposing their ignorance?
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Bryn
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« Reply #5 on: 22:23:26, 12-08-2007 »
Re. Socrate, may I recommend this CD which was originally released by Factory Records. There is also an interesting CD  of the solo voice and piano version on the "Audiophile Classics" label, with Jane Manning and Slovenian pianist, Bojan Gorišek, but it is not easy to find. Gorišek does not offer anything that special, but it's good to hear Manning in the work.

I only know of one recording (a 'live' one) of the Cage arrangement, which includes the important ossia for mobile 'phone ringtone. Remember that one, autoharp? Wink

[I would like to stress that autoharp was not the performer of this ossia part.]
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autoharp
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« Reply #6 on: 22:47:23, 12-08-2007 »
Quote from: Bryn on 22:23:26, 12-08-2007
Re. Socrate,
I only know of one recording (a 'live' one) of the Cage arrangement, which includes the important ossia for mobile 'phone ringtone. Remember that one, autoharp? Wink

[I would like to stress that autoharp was not the performer of this ossia part.]

Chen + Tilbury ? I was at the Birmingham concert rather than the London one . . .
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Bryn
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« Reply #7 on: 23:10:04, 12-08-2007 »
Ah, so you probably missed the ossia. How unfortunate for you. Wink
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autoharp
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« Reply #8 on: 14:40:34, 15-08-2007 »
Thanks to rm + kitty for their posts. I'm surprised that there's no view on Vexations yet, but perhaps no-one else has played it or witnessed a "serious" performance apart from Bryn. I didn't view the Barbican performance of 2 or 3 years ago as remotely serious: a large number of performers played a few repetitions each (for about 10-15 minutes) and there was no discussion about a unified approach - a failing of most performances: most seem to treat the piece as a jape. But it may be, as I mentioned earlier, that there are few members who take the piece seriously.
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roslynmuse
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« Reply #9 on: 15:23:54, 15-08-2007 »
I would be very interested in mounting a (serious) performance of Vexations - I can't begin to imagine what the effect on a listener (or performers) would be but Jonathan Kramer made some interesting points in The Time of Music which have been anecdotally confirmed by friends who HAVE taken part in performances in the 70s, and make me more than curious to experience for myself.
« Last Edit: 18:32:35, 19-08-2007 by roslynmuse » Logged
Jonathan
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« Reply #10 on: 18:24:17, 15-08-2007 »
Rather annoyingly, I have not, after all ordered the Liszt and Satie / Cage CD after all as it is "no longer available" from the seller  Huh  Angry
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Best regards,
Jonathan
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Bryn
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« Reply #11 on: 18:33:00, 15-08-2007 »
Oh, sorry Jonathan, I took it you had already acted. Do please get in touch if I can help. Always place your order before mentioning anything here.
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Jonathan
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« Reply #12 on: 18:39:38, 15-08-2007 »
Ah, you see Bryn, I had added to basket and then I had to wait for an authorisation code for a voucher and by the time that came, it was too late!
I'll order it another time, it's not as if it's a rare CD as it's at MDT as well!
Thanks...
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Best regards,
Jonathan
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autoharp
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« Reply #13 on: 12:52:16, 19-08-2007 »
Quote from: roslynmuse on 15:23:54, 15-08-2007
I would be very interested in mounting a (serious) performance of Vexations - I can't begin to imagine what the effect on a listener (or performer) would be but Jonathan Kramer made some interesting points in The Time of Music which have been anecdotally confirmed by friends who HAVE taken part in performances in the 70s, and make me more than curious to experience for myself.

It's a rewarding experience ! I've not found it boring to either listen to or to play.

Because of the nature of the piece, it seems to me that there are a number of things to consider for starters -

Speed. Crucial if the piece is to be played 840 times. What does Satie mean by Tres lent ? What would Very slow mean to a 19th century musician ? Would it signify something different from what it does today ? Are there other pieces by Satie which bear any similarity in date, style and general character ? (Yes, Danses gothiques in particular).

If played 840 times
Quaver = 78 = 80 seconds per repetition = 18 hours 40 minutes total
           = 60 = 94                               =  24         16     
           = 63 =                                   =  23          6  and 40 secs
           = 52 = 120                             =  28         
           = 104 = 60                             =  14
1 repetition being bass theme + harmonisation 1 + bass theme + harmonisation 2

Ce motif. What does Satie mean by this ? 1 repetition as described above. In his sketchbooks a motif is a short musical cell.
1 repetition could = 4 motifs . . .

Should each repetition be as identical as possible ? (Certainly, in the context of this and Satie's other music of the 1890s). Dynamics ?

etc.

I've read a lot of material pertaining to Vexations, but not Jonathan Kramer's. What points does he make ?
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Andy D
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« Reply #14 on: 13:05:24, 19-08-2007 »
R3 broadcast the final 5 or 6 hours of a performance of Vexations on 28 May 2000 - they joined it at midnight I seem to remember and I listened to a couple of hours or so before the desire for sleep overcame me. I made an MD of 74 minutes of it which I've still got.
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