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Author Topic: Pettersson symphonies  (Read 1779 times)
richard barrett
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« Reply #30 on: 01:10:43, 10-09-2007 »

I don't think you're being unfair at all. At other times I might well have agreed with you. I suspect that there is better to come in the cycle, and when I come to whatever conclusions might end up being possible after I've listened to the rest, it may well be that the Fifth won't be something I'll be returning to in a hurry. In most ways it's an advance on its predecessors, and, whatever shortcomings I might think it has, for me it's prevented from being dull mainly by way of its expressive intensity.
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Chafing Dish
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« Reply #31 on: 13:59:47, 10-09-2007 »

The recording of 5 that I borrowed from our library was recorded by a student orchestra (das Berliner Sibelius-Orchester) in Berlin. Perhaps they are simply not old enough to convey the sophisticated form of suffering encoded into this score?

The liner notes are fantastic: first a paragraph about how Pettersson didn't talk about his own music, then about his poverty and unstoppable muse, then his compositional routine and need for solitude. Subsequently, a paragraph about the genesis of the fifth and a paragraph about its construction are followed by this single-sentence paragraph:

"The basic mood is one of bottomless despair."

To which the Chafe says "Thanks, that's very helpful!"  Smiley
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richard barrett
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« Reply #32 on: 13:19:35, 11-09-2007 »

Here I am again with a brief report on last night's listen to the Sixth. Petterssonians seem to agree that this is the symhony in which he really gets into his stride, and on the evidence I have so far I would have to say that, while the previous works had me sometimes forcing myself to retain my interest (though mostly successfully), this one had my full attention from start to finish and is a very individual work indeed. While it begins with the kind of morose meditations with which I'd become familiar in the previous works, its thematic material and the way it's developed have this time a greatly more confident and purposeful profile, but the most striking thing about the hour-long single movement is the "coda", which occupies not much less than half of the entire duration and consists almost entirely of a slow and strangely meandering melody (which apparently is based on an early song by AP) in various kinds of unison, supported by a pulsating, low-pitched and harmonically almost immobile swell of an accompaniment. I've really never heard anything like it, certainly nothing that stays in this "zone" for such a seemingly endless duration. The closest parallel I can think of is the "epilogue" of RVW's own Sixth (my favourite moment in his entire oeuvre, I should add, or of the fraction of it I know).

This is the first of the cycle of which I'd say without hesitation "give it a try".
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richard barrett
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« Reply #33 on: 20:33:57, 11-09-2007 »

Welcome back to "Richard talks to himself about Pettersson's symphonies"...

Today it was the turn of the Seventh, which I see is the most performed of the cycle and the one which made his international reputation, in the hands of Antal Dorati. I found it somewhat disappointing after the Sixth - its overall form is more "balanced", its harmonic and poetic character, and its orchestration, seem more conventional, sometimes (particularly when the strings are left on their own with some kind of "cantilena") to the point of corniness. I'm not sure whether to think of the startlingly insistent minor triads which permeate most of the work (and often alternate with more angular and chromatic material for long stretches) as radical or just monotonous. While it certainly doesn't sound like anyone else's music, after the grippingly eccentric Sixth it sounds a little to me as if AP had things a little too much under control, knew very well how to go about writing one of his symphonies, and made a good job of it, something which in general I don't find as engaging as when a composer is trying to work beyond his/her limits. Still, I expect this is one of the pieces in the cycle that I'll be returning to.
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martle
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« Reply #34 on: 21:48:07, 11-09-2007 »

Richard
Fear not. This running commentary is being stored away in the martle memory banks (at least) and, with my new determination to listen more widely and betterer, shall be put to good use.  Smiley
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ahinton
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« Reply #35 on: 23:15:15, 11-09-2007 »

Richard is decidedly NOT talking to himself about Pettersson's symphonies here. Indeed, anyone who knows any of them will surely be fascinated to read the pragmatic yet quite obviously committed responses that you express here about music which is plainly a few Norwegian miles (do you now what they are?!) away from any of your own. Do please keep these coming; I'm quite sure that I'll be only one of quite a few who will want to read them.

My own experiences of symphonies 3 - 5 are easy to recount; I've never heard any of them. 6 I have heard once, a long while ago, and I was indeed very taken with it. Across the board, however, there can be little question that AP had a truly individual voice but I do believe that his music desperately needs to be aired in the concert hall rather than just being dependent for appreciation upon people listening to recordings as you are doing (although I'm very glad that you are at least doing the latter and telling us about your experiences with this repertoire).

Best,

Alistair
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time_is_now
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« Reply #36 on: 12:17:52, 12-09-2007 »

Richard
Fear not. This running commentary is being stored away in the martle memory banks
And in the tin memory banks too, though with my newfound determination to get through some of the piles of unlistened CDs on my bedroom floor before buying too many more I may wait a while before hearing for myself.

In the meantime, and completely by coincidence (I hadn't mentioned Pettersson), the following appeared in my email inbox last night from the Queen of Serbia (prompted by the recent Gaudeamus publicity photo some of you have seen):
Quote
i look absolutely dreadfull. i brought so many clothes
to amsterdamgrad ( fashionability is important!) yet
on this final concert i looked like a druged
treetrunk. ah the cruelty of life. i am just going to
go and listen to allan petterssons symphony nr.6 8 you
know that one?)- it is the most suicidal and
depressing composition i know of. and maybe one of the
best symphonies ever written.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
richard barrett
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« Reply #37 on: 12:58:04, 12-09-2007 »

Oh. Thanks for letting me know there's someone out there reading these musings. I fear I shall have to discontinue them for a little while though, while taking care of some other commitments.

I find that Marko is only exaggerating slightly in his description of the Sixth (assuming the figure 8 after the 6 is a failed attempt to open a bracket). I'm not sure whether I think depression brought on by feeling one doesn't look one's best in a published photograph is or isn't a good reason to listen to it though.
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Biroc
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« Reply #38 on: 13:01:42, 12-09-2007 »


In the meantime, and completely by coincidence (I hadn't mentioned Pettersson), the following appeared in my email inbox last night from the Queen of Serbia (prompted by the recent Gaudeamus publicity photo some of you have seen):
Quote
i look absolutely dreadfull. i brought so many clothes
to amsterdamgrad ( fashionability is important!) yet
on this final concert i looked like a druged
treetrunk. ah the cruelty of life. i am just going to
go and listen to allan petterssons symphony nr.6 8 you
know that one?)- it is the most suicidal and
depressing composition i know of. and maybe one of the
best symphonies ever written.

LOL!! Grin
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increpatio
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« Reply #39 on: 21:25:07, 12-09-2007 »

Welcome back to "Richard talks to himself about Pettersson's symphonies"...

Today it was the turn of the Seventh, which I see is the most performed of the cycle and the one which made his international reputation, in the hands of Antal Dorati. I found it somewhat disappointing after the Sixth -

I have to say I quite agree (I'm following along to your listening on and off; alas the amount of constructive listening I've been able to get done recently has been rather minimal  Cry ); I much preferred the motives of the sixth, and their use; this symphony seemed to have much less flow to it, and many more sections, so it seemed.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #40 on: 23:38:31, 12-09-2007 »

Contrary to my own expectations I did manage to find the time and attention today to devote to the Eighth, which I found almost as powerful as the Sixth. Unusually for AP it has two movements of more or less equal duration. The first is suffused by an insanely insistent two-note (E/F) motive with an accompaniment that at one point seems to threaten to become a morbid kind of habanera but never quite gets there, while the second assembles a somewhat more varied group of thematic objects (including one that reminded me disturbingly of stabs of pain) before eventually returning to the E/F obsession of the first. The second movement is also permeated by the sound of the snare drum - at least two of them, in fact, which seem to sound as if at different distances from the listener as well as different dynamics, though this might be a peculiarity of the recording. I realise these are highly superficial and inadequate remarks in the face of a work of considerable depth and complexity, so I think I might have to listen to it again before moving on.

Returning to the Sixth for a moment, I was thinking about its being "suicidal and depressing", and, though I think I know what our vicarious correspondent means, I don't hear it that way and nor do I really think it was intended that way. It seems to me more an embodiment of Beckett's "to be an artist is to fail, as no other dare fail, that failure is his world and the shrink from it desertion, art and craft, good housekeeping, living." The existence of the work is in itself "life-affirming" (how could it not be?); Pettersson (like Beckett) isn't feeling sorry for himself, he's feeling sorry for human suffering. Or so I hear it, more or less.
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ahinton
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« Reply #41 on: 23:52:32, 12-09-2007 »

Contrary to my own expectations I did manage to find the time and attention today to devote to the Eighth, which I found almost as powerful as the Sixth. Unusually for AP it has two movements of more or less equal duration. The first is suffused by an insanely insistent two-note (E/F) motive with an accompaniment that at one point seems to threaten to become a morbid kind of habanera but never quite gets there, while the second assembles a somewhat more varied group of thematic objects (including one that reminded me disturbingly of stabs of pain) before eventually returning to the E/F obsession of the first. The second movement is also permeated by the sound of the snare drum - at least two of them, in fact, which seem to sound as if at different distances from the listener as well as different dynamics, though this might be a peculiarity of the recording. I realise these are highly superficial and inadequate remarks in the face of a work of considerable depth and complexity, so I think I might have to listen to it again before moving on.

Returning to the Sixth for a moment, I was thinking about its being "suicidal and depressing", and, though I think I know what our vicarious correspondent means, I don't hear it that way and nor do I really think it was intended that way. It seems to me more an embodiment of Beckett's "to be an artist is to fail, as no other dare fail, that failure is his world and the shrink from it desertion, art and craft, good housekeeping, living." The existence of the work is in itself "life-affirming" (how could it not be?); Pettersson (like Beckett) isn't feeling sorry for himself, he's feeling sorry for human suffering. Or so I hear it, more or less.
Now you're on Petterssonian territory more familiar to me - and you continue to make good sense of what you are confronting there. "Life-affirming" indeed - and for precisely the reason that you suggest...

At this point, I feel that it might be both prudent and considerate to promise you (from personal experience) that it is actually just about possible to come out from under 9 afterwards if you really work hard at it! (except that I'm not certain about the version of it on the CD series that you have - I have the old LP of it with Comissiona and the Götebuglers...)

Best,

Alistair
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increpatio
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« Reply #42 on: 00:53:54, 13-09-2007 »

The existence of the work is in itself "life-affirming" (how could it not be?); Pettersson (like Beckett) isn't feeling sorry for himself, he's feeling sorry for human suffering. Or so I hear it, more or less.

I don't know if I fully see this myself (I do not understand what exactly you mean by 'life affirming').  I do see it as being an intensely emotionally, however, with the present emotions seeming, to me, to be rather of the bleaker sort for the most part.  But I would not consider it depressing.

Just listened to #8 there.  In the background though, so I took in rather little; seemed much more smoothly put-together than #7. It is not enough to say this I know.
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ahinton
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« Reply #43 on: 13:18:34, 13-09-2007 »

The existence of the work is in itself "life-affirming" (how could it not be?); Pettersson (like Beckett) isn't feeling sorry for himself, he's feeling sorry for human suffering. Or so I hear it, more or less.

I don't know if I fully see this myself (I do not understand what exactly you mean by 'life affirming').  I do see it as being an intensely emotionally, however, with the present emotions seeming, to me, to be rather of the bleaker sort for the most part.  But I would not consider it depressing.
I wonder if perhaps you might have partly answered your own question here; I do not presume to speak for Richard, of course, but I imagine that what he means by "life-affirming" in this context is pretty much what you mean in your reference to emotional intensity and lack of "depressing" effect. One could say (and I have inded heard it said, even by those who adore it as I do) that Elgar's Cello Concerto is a "depressing" work, whereas I find that, for all that some of its emotional thrust is rather on the darker side (albeit nowhere near so much so as is often the case with Pettersson, of course), it, too, is in some sense "life-affirming". Does that make any sense?

Best,

Alistair
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George Garnett
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« Reply #44 on: 13:30:14, 13-09-2007 »

I reckon, just by existing, any work of art worth its salt must always fail to 'be depressing' because the fact that someone has created it gives hope.

If it is just crap however, it can't be depressing either because, by definition, it fails to express anything effectively.

'Being depressing' is therefore the one thing that art can't do.
 
Samuel Beckett and Allan Pettersson cheer you up.

QED  Smiley
 
« Last Edit: 15:42:48, 13-09-2007 by George Garnett » Logged
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