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Author Topic: Tippett Tips  (Read 968 times)
Ron Dough
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« Reply #15 on: 23:29:48, 02-12-2007 »

The Little Music for Strings was the first Tippett work I ever heard, closely followed by the Concerto for Orchestra and the Second String Quartet not long after. I love all three, but whereas I'd start most people off with the outside two plus the Concerto for Double String Orchestra and then the Fantasia Concertante on a Theme of Corelli, in terms of C Dish, I'm in agreement with everyone else that we start him in the middle and move him backwards and forwards.
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C Dish
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« Reply #16 on: 00:55:12, 03-12-2007 »

I don't know much Tippett, so can't comment on this being Tippettyical of his output, but may I put in a word for "Little Music for Strings" and another for his String Quartet No.2?

I like them
-- good enough reason as any!
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inert fig here
Ron Dough
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« Reply #17 on: 09:48:27, 03-12-2007 »

Dishy,
This is where you need to start, then:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B0009A41W4/ref=pd_bbs_sr_olp_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1196674443&sr=1-1

It's the box I mentioned earlier, and includes most of the essential works, so the Little Music, the Concerto for Double String Orchestra and the Fantasia Concertante are there, with the first three each of the piano sonatas and string quartets, the Sonata for Four Horns, the four symphonies (in the finest readings to date), the Triple Concerto and Concerto for Orchestra plus a couple of works we've not mentioned so far: the Suite in D and the Ritual Dances from his first opera The Midsummer Marriage. More than enough to enable you to form a firm impression of his music, the core of any Tippett collection.
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #18 on: 13:08:23, 04-12-2007 »

Michael Tippett was of course one of the English homo-sexualist school; the most prominent member thereof was Benjamin Britten, but there were and are many more of the same kidney. We have always thought it queer that there are no first- or even third-raters among them! The most likely explanation is that they were all too self-conscious and could not for that reason "let themselves go"--this character-defect of theirs, for that is what it is (their self-consciousness we mean, not their homo-sexualism), means that their works lack true passion. But passion is the essence of music; music is not truly music unless it is straightforwardly and sincerely passionate would not Members say?

The closest Tippett comes to a passionate piece is his Child of Our Time, mentioned in passing and may we say somewhat disparagingly in a message above. It is his best work after all! Indeed he himself described it as a Passion; but not of a God-man, rather of a man whose God has left the Light of the Heavens for the Dark of the "collective unconscious." (This recalls the origin of mythology and polytheism in an involuntary irresistible but necessary process within consciousness.) Well! We hear a faint echo of Bach's sublime Passions (although the formal structure of the work was modelled upon that of the Messiah), but it is disfigured beyond redemption through its use of five slave songs. Among the many examples of failure of judgement in English music this is one of the worst! Delius too had in the nineties an "interest" of this kind, and produced during that period his own least worthwhile works, but fortunately he unlike Tippett grew out of the craze. Mahler was the same was he not with his vulgar Viennese ditties.

Our own recording of A Child of Our Time is conducted by Andreas Priwin, and that seems about right. But its cover photograph of seventeen-year-old Herschel Grynspan is so affecting and haunting that we can hardly bear to look at it:


But looking at it perhaps helps us to comprehend Tippett's genuine passion rather better than does his music, even.
« Last Edit: 02:54:53, 08-12-2007 by Sydney Grew » Logged
stuart macrae
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« Reply #19 on: 13:24:34, 04-12-2007 »

Ah, I see you have clarified your earlier ambiguity as to what was the "character defect" in question! However, the clear implication that "homosexualism" leads to "self-consciousness" which in turn makes expression of "true passion" impossible, is deeply offensive, outmoded and ignorant. Not to mention the self-evident fact that Tippett in particular was more than capable of being "straightforwardly and sincerely passionate" in his music.
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Bryn
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« Reply #20 on: 14:16:30, 04-12-2007 »

the clear implication that "homosexualism" leads to "self-consciousness" which in turn makes expression of "true passion" impossible, is deeply offensive, outmoded and ignorant.

That particular clarity of implication escaped me. I took SCGrew's meaning to be that the repressive social conditions under which these "homosexualists" plied their trade (as composers) had conditioned this perceived "self-consciousness".
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stuart macrae
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« Reply #21 on: 14:22:34, 04-12-2007 »

That particular clarity of implication escaped me. I took SCGrew's meaning to be that the repressive social conditions under which these "homosexualists" plied their trade (as composers) had conditioned this perceived "self-consciousness".

Well, I'd be happier if that is what he meant, and would gladly retract my criticism if so, although even on re-reading his post I find it hard to see where that argument is put forth.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #22 on: 15:46:00, 04-12-2007 »

Ah, I see you have clarified your earlier ambiguity as to what was the "character defect" in question! However, the clear implication that "homosexualism" leads to "self-consciousness" which in turn makes expression of "true passion" impossible, is deeply offensive, outmoded and ignorant. Not to mention the self-evident fact that Tippett in particular was more than capable of being "straightforwardly and sincerely passionate" in his music.
If I may for a moment speak in my capacity as a homosexualist, I think I'll risk the generalisation that it is difficult not to be self-conscious about such a condition even if you were born, as I was, a good twenty-two years after the Wolfenden Report moved for the legalisation of homosexual behaviour between consenting males in private.

Mr Grew, I believe, lived through those times, or shortly after, while Michael Tippett was already not merely a practising homosexualist but quite an accomplished one by 1957. Nonetheless I think it would be hard to make the case that an English homosexualist of Sir Michael's generation was not almost inevitably self-conscious.

Mr Grew is I presume aware of the (it seems not entirely well-founded or wholly substantiated) rumour that Herschel Grynspan and the man he shot Ernst vom Rath were in fact secret lovers.

Did Mr Grew ever have a liaison with a second-rate composer and first-rate homosexualist we wonder? We ourselves generally prefer not to mix business with pleasure, and have found that composers above the fourth or fifth rate are generally best not 'liaised with' (if Members will pardon the not entirely Biblical expression).
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
stuart macrae
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« Reply #23 on: 16:01:41, 04-12-2007 »

But does self-consciousness caused by repressive social conditions really inhibit a composer's ability to express himself musically, and with "true passion"? Is there really anything inherently different about "homosexualist" music?
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Andy D
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« Reply #24 on: 16:04:15, 04-12-2007 »

Meanwhile, back to Tippett's music: 2 pieces I really like, although I'm not sure whether you could call them typical Tippett, are the 2nd piano sonata and the 4th quartet. I heard the Lindsays recording of the 4th quartet on R3 when it came out in the late 80s and was so impressed with it that I bought it - an ASV disc together with Britten 3. When the Lindsays recorded the 5th quartet a few years later, I got hold of that as well and was initially disappointed. However, after listening to it several times with the score (which Birmingham libraries kindly got for me), it suddenly clicked for me, so I'd recommend that as well.
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pim_derks
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« Reply #25 on: 16:24:43, 04-12-2007 »

Mr Grew is I presume aware of the (it seems not entirely well-founded or wholly substantiated) rumour that Herschel Grynspan and the man he shot Ernst vom Rath were in fact secret lovers.

"Was Sie Sagen! Von Rath! Wie der erschossene Gesandtschaftsekretär in Paris. Diese Frechheit."

Friedrich Weinreb, "Collaboratie en Verzet 1940-1945", page 375.

Weinreb's highly controversial memoir has not been translated into English, but there is a German edition. The title of this book is "Die Langen Schatten des Krieges". Perhaps Mr Grew has a copy of it somewhere on the shelves of his private library?

We have to make clear that Weinreb made a mistake. The name of the embassy official was indeed Vom Rath (as member time_is_now correctly wrote) and not Von Rath.

According to the eminent historical researcher A.J. van der Leeuw, who was one of the authors of a book of nearly 1700 pages about Weinreb, the name Vom Rath was a very familiar one for many Germans during the Nazi era. After all, the terrible consequence of his assassination was the "Kristallnacht" pogrom.
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"People hate anything well made. It gives them a guilty conscience." John Betjeman
time_is_now
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« Reply #26 on: 16:28:13, 04-12-2007 »

Is there really anything inherently different about "homosexualist" music?
Well, I know several gay composers as well as several non-gay ones who think so, for what it's worth.

I'm not so sure myself, but I think it's a question worth considering. And actually, I do think Tippett's music, for whatever reason, displays symptoms of a gap between expression and conviction.

There's a very interesting chapter (on the Triple Concerto and other works of that period) in David Clarke's excellent book on Tippett which considers the possible influence of his homosexuality on his music.

Andy, you're the only person I know who likes the 4th quartet. It's almost universally regarded as one of Tippett's worst pieces! Wink
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
Andy D
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« Reply #27 on: 16:32:36, 04-12-2007 »

Andy, you're the only person I know who likes the 4th quartet. It's almost universally regarded as one of Tippett's worst pieces! Wink

I always like to be a bit different! Cheesy
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richard barrett
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« Reply #28 on: 16:52:28, 04-12-2007 »

Is there really anything inherently different about "homosexualist" music?
Well, I know several gay composers as well as several non-gay ones who think so, for what it's worth.

Hm. That would imply that there's some way of knowing whether a composer is or is not gay (or maybe hasn't, er, come down definitively on one side or the other) just by listening to their music (as opposed, say, to the kind of texts they set or the kind of "extra-musical subject matter" their music might refer to). If the only music Tippett had written was his instrumental work, I don't think there would be much to go on, same with anyone else one cares to name in my opinion. Convincing counterexamples would be welcome!
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C Dish
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« Reply #29 on: 19:06:55, 04-12-2007 »

I did read an interesting article about Schubert's music for piano four hands in which the composer supposedly choreographed some perhaps suggestive crossings of the hands. However, none of these scores prescribed the gender of the performers. Nor is that a 'purely musical consideration' -- whatever that means.

Thanks for all the Tippett info, ladies and gents (except Syd)! I have my work cut out for me!
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inert fig here
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