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Author Topic: Tippett Tips  (Read 968 times)
martle
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« Reply #30 on: 19:17:19, 04-12-2007 »

I did read an interesting article about Schubert's music for piano four hands in which the composer supposedly choreographed some perhaps suggestive crossings of the hands.

Not that I can immediately point to the literature in support, but I believe this was absolutely standard practice amongst composers and (even more so, and where different) arrangers of orchestral/ operatic music of the time for piano duet - and for precisely the reasons you suggest. Domestic music-making in the late 18th and much of the 19th centuries had a virtually explicit role to play in matchmaking.  Wink
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Green. Always green.
Sydney Grew
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« Reply #31 on: 13:43:14, 06-12-2007 »

Thanks for all the Tippett info, ladies and gents (except Syd)!

Oh! How uncivil that is!
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #32 on: 13:56:45, 06-12-2007 »

If I may for a moment speak in my capacity as a homosexualist, I think I'll risk the generalisation that it is difficult not to be self-conscious about such a condition even if you were born, as I was, a good twenty-two years after the Wolfenden Report moved for the legalisation of homosexual behaviour between consenting males in private.

Mr Grew, I believe, lived through those times, or shortly after, while Michael Tippett was already not merely a practising homosexualist but quite an accomplished one by 1957. Nonetheless I think it would be hard to make the case that an English homosexualist of Sir Michael's generation was not almost inevitably self-conscious.

Mr Grew is I presume aware of the (it seems not entirely well-founded or wholly substantiated) rumour that Herschel Grynspan and the man he shot Ernst vom Rath were in fact secret lovers.

We thank Mr. Now for drawing to our attention this "rumour," of which until now we had been either entirely not or only in some way subliminally aware. After a little consideration though it does seem to us to be not unlikely - not merely a likely story.

First of all, we ourselves have in the East experienced a pickle very similar to that of Vom Rath, instigated by a perceived broken undertaking; in our case the weapons of choice were thank Goodness a bottle of ink (not avoided) and later a rock from behind on a crowded street (adroitly deflected since we have eyes in the back of our head) rather than bullets or acid.

Here are two worthwhile links, but reliable sources for and substantiations of the most interesting parts are as Mr. Now has indicated absent. Following Mr. Derks's suggestion we performed a quick scan of Peyrefitte's oeuvre in this regard but to no avail.

http://www.anoca.org/he/vom/herschel_grynszpan.html

http://www.roizen.com/ron/grynszpan.htm

It is said that vom Rath had two sobriquets: "Madame l'Ambassadeur" and "Notre Dame de Paris" - it is unusual may we say for the one person to have two, so he must have earned them by being quite outstandingly outrageous. Or it may all be fiction. This is something which is susceptible of confirmation and we encourage budding historians to set to work before it is too late. Here he is - is that a duelling scar we see?


Also Herschel Grynspan is said to have met vom Rath in a "gay bar" ("le Boeuf sur le Toit" - shades of Milhaud the plump polytonalist of the "wrong-note" school) which again in our (vast) experience seems very likely given his (poor Herschel's) life story and situation up to that point and the fact that it was Paris.

Gide - who like Peyrefitte was certainly in a position to know - seems to have believed it, but we did look up his Journal for 1938 and were rather surprised not to find the quoted passage. Again this is something susceptible of confirmation through careful scholarly research; we need to get hold of Professor Döscher's article for a start.

So - and here is the important question in the context of this thread: if Gide knew how could Tippett not have known? We may conclude that Tippett too did know may we not, and that fact must throw additional light upon this work of his - especially upon the second of its three sections ("The Child enmeshed in the drama of his personal fate and the elemental social forces of our day"). But in fact the text of this second section (all written by Tippett himself incidentally - jolly old Eliot so popular and omnipresent at one time rejected the task) is more about the accepted version of the mother the aunt and the uncle, with the possible exception of these lines towards the end:

            "He shoots the official -
            "But he shoots only his dark brother -"
            "And see - he is dead."

So perhaps even here Tippett in his self-conscious English way was not being entirely straightforward.

P.S. Mr. Now mentions 1957, presumably because it was the year of the Wolfenden Report; but actually 1967 was more significant; nothing much changed in practice until then was that not so . . .
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #33 on: 12:25:08, 07-12-2007 »

With due deference to Member Grew, it should be pointed out that Tippett's gayness appears not have have been an issue that he himself felt the need to explore, reveal or conceal in his music. He may well have introduced opera's first gay lovers, but it certainly wasn't the strongest conviction in his life: it was for his pacifism, not his sexuality that he went uncomplainingly to gaol.

With this in mind, I'd like to question the member's selection of A Child of Our Time as the composer's best, let alone most passionate, work, which leads me to wonder exactly how acquainted he may be with King Priam, the co-commission (along with Britten's War Requiem) for the consecration of the new Coventry Cathedral, and as such, a far more scathing indictment of the futility of war besides a dramatic examination of the passions that are amongst its causes and results.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #34 on: 19:34:39, 07-12-2007 »

Oh, but Ron, surely King Priam is quite uncharacteristic in not having a character or characters with whom Tippett might obviously have identified, unlike for example Dov in what I personally think is his most interesting piece, The Knot Garden.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #35 on: 19:50:21, 07-12-2007 »

The Knot Garden may be his most interesting piece in some ways, but what struck me about King Priam when I was listening to it the other day was that firstly its libretto is by far the most coherent one he wrote (he seems much more sure about what he wants to say and much more focused about how to say it), and secondly that libretto is set so that every word is clearly audible, which isn't so much the case in his other operas, both of which point towards a greater sense of urgency.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #36 on: 19:52:44, 07-12-2007 »

King Priam strikes me, though, as a possibly excellent but certainly uncharacteristic piece, rather as if he'd decided to be sensible for once (I could never fall in love with it!).
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
Ron Dough
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« Reply #37 on: 20:55:17, 07-12-2007 »

Tinners, doesn't he identify with Patroklos, Achilles and Priam? Not a single character, but there are aspects of him in all three (in an opera which is crammed with threes). It's a clearly focussed story, and its huge importance to him can be gauged by the radical change in his music he was willing to engineer. The fact that it might be seen as uncharacteristic needn't prevent it from being seen as his finest work either: it's virtually devoid of the 'let's throttle him' moments, and could certainly be seen as the zenith of his operatic quintet. I love The Midsummer Marriage and The Knot Garden too, but neither attempts to achieve the epic exploration of the human condition which Priam evinces. The one opera where he uncharacteristically aims for the timeless spares, at a stroke, all the embarrassments which proliferate when he seeks to be contemporary. 
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time_is_now
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« Reply #38 on: 20:58:52, 07-12-2007 »

Point taken (just!) about the threesome, but there's not a single thing in The Knot Garden that embarrasses me, Ron! Smiley
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
Ron Dough
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« Reply #39 on: 21:11:41, 07-12-2007 »

I'll concede that point about Knot Garden, tinners: the embarrassing moments in the original production were at the hands of the director. But I fell hopelessly in love with Priam at first sight, and even more when I had a tape of that season's broadcast.
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #40 on: 03:36:29, 08-12-2007 »

One more word if we may venture it about Tippett's young hero Herschel Grynspan, who is incidentally rumoured to have survived the war returned to Paris and there supported a family of four through his labours as a motor-garage mechanic (even to this day we wonder?): the strangest thing in his whole story is that in June 1940, while being transported to the south with other young prisoners, his train was attacked and he found himself free. What was his reaction to this unexpected freedom? He made his way to prison A many miles away and presented himself. Told that they could not at that to say the least difficult time take him in, he made his way to prison B many miles away again and presented himself there. There is much food for thought in this story we find. We do think of Genet of course, but it is really the principle behind monastic life down the ages that we cannot put out of our minds is not it.
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #41 on: 11:59:01, 08-12-2007 »

So - and here is the important question in the context of this thread: if Gide knew how could Tippett not have known? We may conclude that Tippett too did know may we not, and that fact must throw additional light upon this work of his - especially upon the second of its three sections ("The Child enmeshed in the drama of his personal fate and the elemental social forces of our day"). But in fact the text of this second section (all written by Tippett himself incidentally - jolly old Eliot so popular and omnipresent at one time rejected the task) is more about the accepted version of the mother the aunt and the uncle, with the possible exception of these lines towards the end:

            "He shoots the official -
            "But he shoots only his dark brother -"
            "And see - he is dead."

So perhaps even here Tippett in his self-conscious English way was not being entirely straightforward.

As fascinating as the insight into this rumour and its dissemination is, what Tippett does with the story is to boil it down to a pseudo-Jungian sketch, rich in archetypes. Those three lines that you quote, I think, are more to do with the identification that violence towards others is a means by which we attempt to attack ourselves, than to do with any encrypted meaning. I am prepared to be shot down by more knowledgeable folk than I (how very noble of me).

I don't really have any recommendations to add to those already made. My favourite piano sonata is the first; I'm equally in love with the first three string quartets; I love the second and fourth symphonies, but also like the third; I adore the piano concerto, the fantasia on a theme by corelli, and the double concerto; of the operas, I've only seen king priam, but I have enjoyed listening to the knot garden (and reading the libretti for the ice break and new year); oh yes, and I do like the rose lake, the vision of st augustine and I think that the child of our time is simply one of the most moving things I've ever heard a choral society sing.

Any thoughts on the song cycles? It's been such a long time since I heard any of them I'm not sure I can really comment at all.
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marbleflugel
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« Reply #42 on: 22:05:54, 25-01-2008 »

Ron and co- know if there's a recording of last opera 'New Year' anywhere?-Texan commission I think, audacious stylistic moves which I though came off (eg considered idiosyncratic take on Rap).
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time_is_now
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« Reply #43 on: 22:15:56, 25-01-2008 »

There's still never been a recording of New Year, I'm afraid, mf. The best you'll manage to find is an orchestral suite from it, coupled with Hickox's recording of the Second Symphony (or is it the Fourth?) on Chandos, but it's not really worth your £15.

Worth mentioning that David Atherton's Virgin recording of The Ice Break is now available in EMI's budget-price British Music Classics series. No libretto, but for that you can buy the ENO guide to Tippett's operas (Opera Guide No 29, £10 or thereabouts from MDC on St Martin's Lane, next to the Coliseum), which also contains the libretti for Tippett's first three operas, as well as a collection of interesting essays by Bill Bowen, Paul Driver et al.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
Ron Dough
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« Reply #44 on: 22:34:45, 25-01-2008 »

mf, tinners, no, there's never been a commercial recording of New Year; however, thanks to the convoluted series of swaps and surprises that underpin this board, I'd not be at all surprised if a rather pleasant PM were to come your way shortly.... Wink
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