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ahinton
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« Reply #75 on: 15:56:44, 14-12-2007 » |
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In the 18th century, temporal rulers were understood to be elements in the very same system which encompassed the theocentric cosmic order, so this example from Bach wouldn't have been in any way a contradiction.
OK (although I wouldn't have minded hearing Bach's own take on it all), but what about nowadays? - in particular, what about the (admittedly so far hypothetical) example I gave above of an atheist hereditary monarch? To return to Ian's hypothetical situation, I wonder how many composers on this forum would agree to change their ways in strict accordance with such a decree as he writes about, were one to be issued by the government of their land? And in any case, would the mere declaration itself guarantee that all music composed in compliance with such an edict would be widely performed, broadcast and recorded even in the composers' own land? (and, if so, at whose expense?). And what if a majority of people came to reject it, or at least reject its prevalence? The nub of the matter, to me, at least, is this; if I make a careful examination of any work that I have written with the specific intent of discovering its political content, motivation or influence and the precise nature of that content, motivation or influence and fail to find any, does this necessarily mean that I'm too stupid to see what's staring me in the face, or too blind to see the wood for the trees or that there's no such things there to find? And what, in this context, of the question of music that may not (always) travel well? (as discussed elsewhere on the forum recently - at least I think it was on this forum[!]); might it be reasonable to conclude that Carter's greater success and exposure in Europe than in his own country and Vaughan Williams's absence from programmes in France tell us anything about the relationship between those composers' music and the prevailing politics of the countries concerned? and, if so, now that Carter's being played much more in US and if VW ever becomes the darling of France (just waiting for Maître Pierre to conduct A Sea Symphony in Paris), will this not be indicative that the politics of the countries have changed? - because the music itself won't have done... Best, Alistair |
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ahinton
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« Reply #76 on: 16:06:12, 14-12-2007 » |
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I retire from the field, leaving behind me the vague hope that somebody more learned than myself will come up with a more clear-cut example of reusing music without reusing the idea  Attaching music to advertisements? (this happens often, and with the artists' permissions). A fine example and one which reveals that you are "more learned" than our resident RockFan (but then, by his own admission, he is "Ignorant")... Best, Alistair |
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strinasacchi
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« Reply #77 on: 16:30:29, 14-12-2007 » |
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I retire from the field, leaving behind me the vague hope that somebody more learned than myself will come up with a more clear-cut example of reusing music without reusing the idea I have a vague recollection of hearing about medieval religious madrigals that had bawdy tavern songs artfully woven into the fabric. Perhaps Reiner can enlighten me? If true, this strikes me as a cheeky bit of political/religious skewering, rather like a political cartoon. |
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #78 on: 16:35:44, 14-12-2007 » |
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In the 18th century, temporal rulers were understood to be elements in the very same system which encompassed the theocentric cosmic order, so this example from Bach wouldn't have been in any way a contradiction.
...and not too far away from that I understood the way the notes (and for that matter instruments) related to each other was also understood to be woven into it all. Trinity and triads and such. One of the least satisfactory of Bach's reworkings to my mind is the rejigging of Hercules' rejection aria 'Ich will dich nicht hören, ich will dich nicht wissen' to become 'Bereite dich, Zion, mit zärtlichen Trieben' in the Christmas Oratorio. Texts have a completely different message/outlook/impulse/whatever. About the only thing they share is an accentuation pattern. That would be off topic though. 'Scuse me. |
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #79 on: 16:59:26, 14-12-2007 » |
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And in any case, would the mere declaration itself guarantee that all music composed in compliance with such an edict would be widely performed, broadcast and recorded even in the composers' own land? (and, if so, at whose expense?). And what if a majority of people came to reject it, or at least reject its prevalence?
In the case of the USSR - which established a criteria of "rules" (both written and unwritten) this did indeed happen - and still does. The "Moskovskaya Osen'" ("Moscow Autumn") Festival features new works by composers who achieved State Accreditation... mostly during the USSR period, which cannot be retrospectively cancelled as it is a lifetime honour. Anyone on this list automatically gets a play in the Festival, at least (provided they've actually produced at least 1-2 pieces which are new). This might not meet your criteria of "broadcast" (although around half of the concerts are broadcast), but it does illustrate that such a set of circumstances not only once existed... but has not even yet fully died out. |
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
- Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #80 on: 17:04:14, 14-12-2007 » |
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(a tangential response to strina's post) Well, when Mozart/Da Ponte placed the lines Viva la libertà in Don Giovanni, for no apparent reason in terms of the plot and the characters, it was supposedly a way of working in an expression of support for various revolutionary ideals of the time (some have argued it refers to sexual liberty, though - see this exchange on the subject). |
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« Last Edit: 17:10:26, 14-12-2007 by Ian Pace »
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #81 on: 17:13:33, 14-12-2007 » |
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I have a vague recollection of hearing about medieval religious madrigals that had bawdy tavern songs artfully woven into the fabric. Perhaps Reiner can enlighten me?
I think Baz is your man for that, Strina - he's more up on medieval stuff than I am! But there are certainly examples of that kind of re-usage... the Carmina Burana MS (I mean the medieval set of manuscripts, not the Orff cantata!) has several of them. But there are much more widely-known examples... for example, Dufay's Mass "Se La Face Ay Pale". Here the composer has taken his own secular love-song "Se la face ay pale" ("If my face seems pale, it's because of love - that's the main reason...") and worked it into the "tenor" part ("tenor" here meaning not only the "tenor" line, but in the older sense of "holding" - the song appears in extended-length notes as a "cantus firmus" amongst the four-part vocal texture). There are other examples of songs from the profane world (including Dufay's Mass on "l'Homme Arme", "The Armed Man") appearing as primary musical material in liturgical works too. |
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
- Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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ahinton
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« Reply #82 on: 17:19:42, 14-12-2007 » |
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And in any case, would the mere declaration itself guarantee that all music composed in compliance with such an edict would be widely performed, broadcast and recorded even in the composers' own land? (and, if so, at whose expense?). And what if a majority of people came to reject it, or at least reject its prevalence?
In the case of the USSR - which established a criteria of "rules" (both written and unwritten) this did indeed happen - and still does. The "Moskovskaya Osen'" ("Moscow Autumn") Festival features new works by composers who achieved State Accreditation... mostly during the USSR period, which cannot be retrospectively cancelled as it is a lifetime honour. Anyone on this list automatically gets a play in the Festival, at least (provided they've actually produced at least 1-2 pieces which are new). This might not meet your criteria of "broadcast" (although around half of the concerts are broadcast), but it does illustrate that such a set of circumstances not only once existed... but has not even yet fully died out. That's interesting; many thanks for this. I suppose one problem that would likely grow were this kind of thing ever to become the norm in most countries is that of the factionalising of music within the individual countries wherein it is produced, in the sense that what complies with one country's decreed requirements will not apply in another country because things are expected to be done differently there. That said, however, do those written and unwritten rules whose application has to some degree transferred from USSR to present-day Russia remain anything like as prescriptive as those which Ian put forward in his hypothesis? - i.e. an insistence upon "tonal harmonies, regular beats" and the presentation of "a joyous and uplifting experience"? I would add that, were that kind of thing ever to happen here, I'd be after getting not only me coat but me one-way plane ticket a s.a p. (although it remains to be seen whether this admission would encourage those who'd like to see the back of me to petition Gordian Brown to issue such a decree...) Best, Alistair |
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« Last Edit: 17:22:53, 14-12-2007 by ahinton »
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #83 on: 17:21:01, 14-12-2007 » |
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(a tangential response to strina's post)
Well, when Mozart/Da Ponte placed the lines Viva la libertà in Don Giovanni, for no apparent reason in terms of the plot and the characters It's not completely irrelevant to the story though, is it? [My house] is open to all [even a bunch of wackos in masks], hurrah for liberty [- so should you have a problem with my libertine attitudes, kindly have a look at what you're up to]. Fair enough on the face of it. |
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ahinton
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« Reply #84 on: 17:25:18, 14-12-2007 » |
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(a tangential response to strina's post)
Well, when Mozart/Da Ponte placed the lines Viva la libertà in Don Giovanni, for no apparent reason in terms of the plot and the characters It's not completely irrelevant to the story though, is it? [My house] is open to all [even a bunch of wackos in masks], hurrah for liberty [- so should you have a problem with my libertine attitudes, kindly have a look at what you're up to]. Fair enough on the face of it. OK, but I think that Ian's point was that the opera medium at least was amenable to opportunities for some subtle politicking, which is surely true. Best, Alistair |
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #85 on: 17:29:02, 14-12-2007 » |
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I have a vague recollection of hearing about medieval religious madrigals that had bawdy tavern songs artfully woven into the fabric. Perhaps Reiner can enlighten me? A quick google leads me to what is surely not wiki's finest moment: Martin Luther composed a number of hymns in the 16th century. It is a common misconception that he reportedly borrowed melodies from popular tavern drinking songs of that period. This misconception may be due to the fact that several of the tunes that he used were in German Bar form (meaning a three-part stanza), which refers to the form of the music (AAB) not the place in which it was performed.  |
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ahinton
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« Reply #86 on: 17:32:35, 14-12-2007 » |
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I have a vague recollection of hearing about medieval religious madrigals that had bawdy tavern songs artfully woven into the fabric. Perhaps Reiner can enlighten me? A quick google leads me to what is surely not wiki's finest moment: Martin Luther composed a number of hymns in the 16th century. It is a common misconception that he reportedly borrowed melodies from popular tavern drinking songs of that period. This misconception may be due to the fact that several of the tunes that he used were in German Bar form (meaning a three-part stanza), which refers to the form of the music (AAB) not the place in which it was performed. It's enough to get on your wiki, is it not?!... Best, Alistair |
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #87 on: 17:41:44, 14-12-2007 » |
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That said, however, do those written and unwritten rules whose application has to some degree transferred from USSR to present-day Russia remain anything like as prescriptive as those which Ian put forward in his hypothesis? - i.e. an insistence upon "tonal harmonies, regular beats" and the presentation of "a joyous and uplifting experience"?
Well, obviously not quite so prescriptive as that  However, although the list of Accredited Composers isn't actually "closed", there are very, very few younger names on it (and many obvious omissions - viz Belova, Chechetko)... and the huge majority of the names played in Moskovskaya Osen are those who "made it" during the soviet period, and inevitably compose the kind of music that got them "through the hoops" in that more prescriptive period. BTW, adapting profane tunes to religious use wasn't confined to the Middle Ages. The American "charismatic" hymn "What a friend we have in Jesus" (I mean the tune with the dotted rhythms) has filched the tune of the Russian folksong "Stenka Razin"... which tells the bloodthirsty tale of Russia's "Robin Hood", and how he met a sticky end on Red Square, where he was hung, drawn and quartered  |
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
- Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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autoharp
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« Reply #88 on: 18:30:37, 14-12-2007 » |
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My oh my. This thread's taken off since I last looked. I don't have time to read it properly at the moment, but I did notice that Baz (in Reply #37) reckons I "started this whole ball rolling". That's pretty rich, Baz, but it did make me grin. You read the word "political" in a post about music and immediately hit the roof! (memories of "Politics and Modernism"). Without getting involved in the present argument (haven't we been here already?), I'll explain the thoughts behind my post this morning ,even if they're probably irrelevant by now. But beyond the "dissonant counterpoint", quite a bit of difference between Crawford and Ruggles. And Crawford and Riegger were both firmly on the political left and Ruggles, er . . . was not.
Who cares?! Baz Lou Harrison did, for one. He got so pissed off with Ruggles' racist and anti-Jewish remarks that he stopped visiting him. I suspected that C.Dish was implying more similarity between the works of Ruggles and Crawford than I was willing to accept. Ruggles was, after all, a died-in-the-wool romantic: Crawford most certainly was not. The "political" comment was no more than a "by the way", relevant since many American composers were affected by social and political issues during the "Hungry years". Some,like Copland, wrote mass songs. (Thanks to Sydney Grew for pointing out that Riegger did too - something I didn't know). No doubt there was there was the odd Cardew-like adoption of a different musical style - Blitzstein was apparently an example. The music of others may have been affected more subtlely and perhaps only for a time - Cowell's an example. The style of others no doubt changed not a jot. Baz is probably aware that there are certain works of mine which address social/political issues. I can assure him that this certainly has a bearing on how the notes go. On the other hand, I do not necessarily seek to argue that the works of Ruggles and Crawford differ simply because of any real or imagined political input by either - or observations by the rest of us. |
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« Last Edit: 06:10:27, 15-12-2007 by autoharp »
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #89 on: 18:55:08, 14-12-2007 » |
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Errrrrm a/h, is there a touch of nesting trauma going on there, by any chance? |
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